"Vintage" IT Rules, ie 1989 or Earlier?

[lateapex911]

Actually, Jake, the word you wanted to use was "provenance". (unless you're from France)

classic. I get to use it once, then I typo it to death!

[Ron Earp]

Adapt a carb to the 13BR and size it to create a power target window. Eliminates ECU's etc.

Is the carb old and difficult to get parts for (I don't know, was told that)? Do you really want to race a carbed car in 2013?

[G-Man]

Greatly enjoying this discussion - thank you. I ran a Spec7, now an IT-A Rx-7. Also have a street 1985 Rx-7 daily driver and a lovely 3/78 street Rx-7 that I'll probably sell since I can't use it and it's way too nice to race.

The engine issue is HUGE. (Would love to know specifics about replating for the street cars.) Or a good transplant choice.
What can I do when my race motor goes? I've got spare housings - that need replating, but can't find good engines (affordable or not).

Didn't think you could convert to 13B/GSL-SE without changing _everything_ on the chassis?

Yeah, 12As stopped in 85 - but 2nd Gen motors are already 20 years old (tho still available).

[lateapex911]

Greatly enjoying this discussion - thank you. I ran a Spec7, now an IT-A Rx-7. Also have a street 1985 Rx-7 daily driver and a lovely 3/78 street Rx-7 that I'll probably sell since I can't use it and it's way too nice to race.

The engine issue is HUGE. (Would love to know specifics about replating for the street cars.)

Maybe Tom will fill us in. I THINK he knows of the supplier. Or he knows somebody that does. . Or Steve E knows too I bet. It's not actually replating with the original chromium whatever, it's a new plating process, and, therefor, not kosher.

Or a good transplant choice.
What can I do when my race motor goes? I've got spare housings - that need replating,

ha, spares that need replating are commonplace, and, under the current rules, only useful as large paperweights.

but can't find good engines (affordable or not).

Didn't think you could convert to 13B/GSL-SE without changing _everything_ on the chassis?

Yeah, 12As stopped in 85 - but 2nd Gen motors are already 20 years old (tho still available).

Yes, you are right about the ITA 12a to ITS 13B conversion. It's a TON of work, and those cars weren't exactly common anyway. The injection is unique to that year, and I bet you'd need to do the wiring harness as well, to make it run and be legal. And we all know how much we love old Mazda wiring harnesses and the odds of finding one that will come apart...without ..coming apart never to go back together again. LOL

yea, to me the ITA to ITS conversion is basically jumping from the fire into the frying pan.

[lateapex911]

Is the carb old and difficult to get parts for (I don't know, was told that)? Do you really want to race a carbed car in 2013?

I would imagine that a generic carb would be chosen, (and bet that's what Andy meant) as the Niki car is also getting long in the tooth. Racing Beat had a Holley with a matching manifold back in the day. I know there have been lots of alternate carbs used over the years, so there are solutions, no doubt.
But yea, yuck, if i went to the trouble of swapping it all, having to deal with a carb would suck! (I know, can't have your cake and eat it too, LOL)

[Andy Bettencourt]

2nd Gen RX7 answers both of those questins -- don't have to build and can buy cheap, and it is a winner

Except these guys aren't asking that question...Bueller? Bueller?

They want and love their Gen 1's. Focus!!!!

[128 racecar]

Except these guys aren't asking that question...Bueller? Bueller?

They want and love their Gen 1's. Focus!!!!

Actually, the question was if anyone recalled the difference between the current rules and the ones back in the 80s. And to think I was concerned if posting in this forum would get any attention (LOL)

I appreciate the rarity of the 1st gen motors. Considering the previous cars I have vintage raced (Fiat 128, 1st gen Honda Civic 1200, and currently a Datsun 610), at least there are still 1st gen RX7s out there! It is unlikely you will ever see any of my previous models on Craigslist. Rarity is relative. I once drove 800 miles round trip for a 128 parts car.

Anyway, if practicality, availability of parts, ease to work on, decent suspensions, or reliability were requirements for vintage racing, that would eliminate 95% of the grid!!! I won my class with my Fiat a number of times because I was the only one of 10 or 15 in my class to get to the false grid for the feature!

Another factor of longevity is the frequency and level of racing. Typical race year for my is 3-4 race weekends. Likewise, while you are probably going 10/10ths, the majority of time I am driving 8/10ths- 7/10ths if there is no one to dice with. I got 8 seasons (29 race weekends) out of the motor I built for my Fiat 128. Mobil 1 is good, but so is stroking it when your buddies are on the trailer.

Is 1989 old? It's old enough for us in the VSCDA! Come out and join us- just don't put a fender on the guy next to you. Even Miatas are welcome, assuming if someone can help me figure out what the IT rules were in the 80s so since the club requires prep to that era's rules (hey, we came full circle!).

Thanks for chiming in- you IT guys are certainly an enthusiastic group, even when you don't agree with each other.

Thanks,
Marc in Indy
1975 Datsun 610 ITB rat rod vintage race refugee

[128 racecar]

Is the carb old and difficult to get parts for (I don't know, was told that)? Do you really want to race a carbed car in 2013?

Golly, the only thing I was aware of besides Webers were Hitachis. What's fuel injection? ECUs?? Now you know why I am stuck in vintage racing. My wrenching expertise ended somewhere around 1979. A Weber 32/36 I understand. ECUs are black boxes to me.

Marc in Indy

[lateapex911]

OK, to answer the OP questions, man, that was a long time ago!

I built a first gen in 93, when the iTCS was still a separate book.

Since then, I KNOW interior rules have relaxed, the 'dual purpose' aspect has gone, the suspension rules now explicitly allow spherical bearings (a case can be made that they did back then too).
ECUs are now legal, but that's not an issue on the 1st gen RX-7.
Radiators used to be free, so you could get one that didn't fill the stock opening and viola! You had a legal cold air intake opening.
As far as the engine is concerned, I thin it's unchanged ruleswise, as far as the RX-7 goes.

The rear suspension now uses parts that didn't exist back in the late 1980s, but, I THINK the traction bar allowance existed, so the Tri-link solution COULD have existed.

[128 racecar]

Jake:

Thanks!

Marc

[Gary L]

Try this - it's the orginal proposed IT ruleset, ca 1985.

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/downloads/ThisisIT.pdf

Can't comment on how much change was made by 1989, but wouldn't think it was major.

[joeg]

Need a stock passenger seat...that one I seem to remember.

Kill switches not necessary.

[128 racecar]

Try this - it's the orginal proposed IT ruleset, ca 1985.

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/downloads/ThisisIT.pdf

Can't comment on how much change was made by 1989, but wouldn't think it was major.

Brilliant! Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks Gary

Marc

[TomL]

On the 12a replating, Tom Sprecher did most of the investigation, so I can only give you second hand info. The company was located in Canada (can't remember its name). The main problems were: a) it would cost about $750 per housing (i.e., about $1500 to do an engine), and they weren't interested in doing it unless some one would have it done in a batch of 50 or more. So unless someone was willing to take on a big financial risk (near $40,000 just have a batch done, then wondering whether you can sell them all for at least that price, plus possible warranty issues if the process was less than perfect), it was doubtful whether it was feasible. None of us wanted to take it on, for sure.

It wasn't clear if it was legal or not under existing IT rules (most likely not), but we figured that we could get SEDiv to approve it as part of the IT7 rules. [And how would anyone know anyway? ]

[G-Man]

[And how would anyone know anyway? ]

Wouldn't the nicely-running 12As be a giveaway?

[mustanghammer]

http://www.jhbperformance.com/

This is the Canadian company that does the rotor housing repair.

[Dano77]

And there is these dudes too,also canada. But they also have an all ALUMINUM 13b WOW

http://www.rotaryengine.com/services/ceramiccoat.htm

The stuff i called Cermet or Nikosil Google it. There were some guys down south that did it as well,thier site is kinda sketchy though.

Dan 77 IT7 or EP or STU or ...........

[tom_sprecher]

Wow, I haven't been here in a long time, but it looks like I picked a good time to return.

Three years ago when MazdaSpeed sent me an email stating the 12A rotor housings would no longer be available as of a month before, I called Butch asking who to contact about getting the IT7 rules changed to allow coating the housings. He explained that would be me and wasn't sure why other that sort of remembering putting me on the IT7AC after we were drinking one night.

So after looking into alternatives it seemed JHB would be a good candidate. Unfortunately, Mark wanted to do a batch of 100 at $450 each. All I had to do is ship a couple of pallets to Canada along with a $45k check and he would hook us up. I tried to explain the IT7 community did not have 100 housings, nor did we need them all at this time. The problem was he did not do the Cermet spaying, but an aerospace facilty down the street did and they only run large batches. He does have the proper equipment to grind the Cermet to the required whatever-roid shape.

I did get an email blast from JHB earlier this year anouncing a sale on 13B parts. After replying back inquiring about any 12A parts, he said check back in the summer. If anyone wants to follow up on that I can send you the emails.

Unless I over looked it the other site, rotaryengine.com, makes no mention of coating rotor housings.

After the exercise in alternate coatings, Blair and I had talked about the 13B and the 20B. He was going to look into an intake to mate the Nikki to the 20B. No one I talked to about the Cermet allowance was intereseted in either of the two engine ideas. "It will put an end to the class" was the most common refrain. That and not having rotor housings.

At about the same time the economy put a halt to all my disposable income and I lost interest. Why worry about another engine when I don't have the cash to run the one I have?

If Blair and Rex have done something that's great. Maybe a look at the STU rules wouldn't be a bad thing either. I'm racing again (when it's not too hot out) and when this engine goes I'll have to look into something else.

[pdqracer]

To reply to "all' of the above; The carb option is a dying technology and will only get harder to get quality carb parts. The RX7 12A carb was a pain from the start to race. Some figured it out, but many still struggle to get a clean burn at al throtle positions. Corner exit is a problem for many that the fuel injection would solve.

I have no plans yet to build an IT-7R, but would welcome the option of fuel injection, even with a restrictor.

[Ron Earp]

I met a guy at the VIR tavern this past July that had done a carb conversion on a Renesis and had it in the first gen chassis. I forgot his name, nice fellow, a vet.

You could put a little Holley or Demon carb on it - no shortage whatsoever of those carb parts and there isn't going to be for a long time to come. I mean, if you're making the rules then make the rules. An carb conversion Renesis sounds plausible.