"Vintage" IT Rules, ie 1989 or Earlier?

[lateapex911]

As a guy with four sets of every 12a engine part, yet getting ONE engine is doubtful, here's my take.

Gregs right. The Process fails the car, sorta. One, the Process power is optimistic. MAYbe one guy in the country can make it, but maybe not. BUT, even if they lowered it to a more realistic number, ITA is still not the right class, because the PW ratio makes the car too light...far lighter than is can actually weigh.

As for the typical situation, the motor parts can't be found. Now, there ARE good aftermarket solutions for using the old shot for current rules parts, and they add no measurable power, but they are illegal. (Philosophically, Greg's right, the solution matches the piston engine rebuild method)

In my time on the ITAC, it got discussed, but, there was no support behind allowing replating, etc. Somebody mentioned VW hubs, and Nissan distributor gears, and it went downhill from there. "Tell them to move on, they've had their day in the sun" was the general consensus.

Here's the bottom line to me:
My car, which holds a bunch of track records etc, is worth, with some spares, (if it had the track record engine in and running) MAYbe $4K .
NObody will pay more and there are a BUNCH for sale all the time for less.

So, I can:
-Buy one of those $3000 cars, and use the engine and convert it to spares.....BUT, that engines likely a questionable quantity at best, and a short fused time bomb at worst. So, $3K to stay in place and get a short extension on life.
-Get my parts replated (I actually have to sort through everything with a fine Steve Eckerdged comb to make sure I can't get one engine from 4) and run ...illegally. That will probably end up costing $2500 or so.
-Convert to a 13B and run ITS. New brakes, wheels, hubs, suspension geometry, (and parts!) engine and electronics. Gulp. THAT won't be cheap. And I'll have a car worth.....$4K. Cuz it sure aint gonna win ITS with a live axle, 145 hp, and struts!
- Get a 2nd Gen car and move on. The real issue with that is: It's a whole different car. I'll need to relearn all the stuff I've learned about the old one...and that's fine, BUT, IT is only 3-5 years younger, so I'm really only buying a few years at best. Now, I might be able to dump my car, and get into a new(er) 2nd gen for $6 - 8K all up, so it's not that bad, but, it's an interim step for sure.

So I see where the guys are coming from with the Renesis motor. If you're going to change it, at least do it so you're not doing it again in 3 or 4 years.

To me, just adding an allowance for plating in the ITCS for rotary sideplates and housings makes the most sense, but, I think the ITAC will allow that right after they allow a Viper engine to run in the TR8...

[JeffYoung]

I agree with everything Jake wrote. It's a real quandry for the 12A guys. Great car, lots of history, good group of drivers.

But I knew when Russ Marshall's car didn't sell at $3k or whatever he was asking for it that the class was in trouble. Honestly Jake, I think you'd have a hard time getting $4k for your car just because of where IT7 is now, and not anything to do with the car itself.

I look at those options and, with an "ITS racing in the SEDiv is really good right now" bias, just see getting a $6-8k 2nd Gen car as the best option. They are known quantities, bugs have been sorted, and they are a great race car. But that is me.

We'll see how it plays out.

[Chip42]

RX8? I mean , if you want the newest thing and to limit your relearning... I know a guy in NC who could build you a real nice one.

[ner88]

My Miata has a 1989 production date, can I play?

[Andy Bettencourt]

It doesn't matter what WE would do. It matters what they want. The key to lasting success is a simple package and a ruleset that can cross over Regions. Adapt a carb to the 13BR and size it to create a power target window. Eliminates ECU's etc.

[Ron Earp]

Adapt a carb to the 13BR and size it to create a power target window. Eliminates ECU's etc.

Is the carb old and difficult to get parts for (I don't know, was told that)? Do you really want to race a carbed car in 2013?

[G-Man]

Greatly enjoying this discussion - thank you. I ran a Spec7, now an IT-A Rx-7. Also have a street 1985 Rx-7 daily driver and a lovely 3/78 street Rx-7 that I'll probably sell since I can't use it and it's way too nice to race.

The engine issue is HUGE. (Would love to know specifics about replating for the street cars.) Or a good transplant choice.
What can I do when my race motor goes? I've got spare housings - that need replating, but can't find good engines (affordable or not).

Didn't think you could convert to 13B/GSL-SE without changing _everything_ on the chassis?

Yeah, 12As stopped in 85 - but 2nd Gen motors are already 20 years old (tho still available).

[lateapex911]

Is the carb old and difficult to get parts for (I don't know, was told that)? Do you really want to race a carbed car in 2013?

I would imagine that a generic carb would be chosen, (and bet that's what Andy meant) as the Niki car is also getting long in the tooth. Racing Beat had a Holley with a matching manifold back in the day. I know there have been lots of alternate carbs used over the years, so there are solutions, no doubt.
But yea, yuck, if i went to the trouble of swapping it all, having to deal with a carb would suck! (I know, can't have your cake and eat it too, LOL)

[128 racecar]

Is the carb old and difficult to get parts for (I don't know, was told that)? Do you really want to race a carbed car in 2013?

Golly, the only thing I was aware of besides Webers were Hitachis. What's fuel injection? ECUs?? Now you know why I am stuck in vintage racing. My wrenching expertise ended somewhere around 1979. A Weber 32/36 I understand. ECUs are black boxes to me.

Marc in Indy

[lateapex911]

RX8? I mean , if you want the newest thing and to limit your relearning... I know a guy in NC who could build you a real nice one.

Me too! But...BUILD a car? $$$$$$$$...
AND...the (quite literally), $64,000 question: Will it be a winner?

Jeff, yea, sadly even $4k would be a stretch, even with it's provence! (I just had to use that word for one time in my life, LOL)

[TomL]

Actually, Jake, the word you wanted to use was "provenance". (unless you're from France)

[lateapex911]

Actually, Jake, the word you wanted to use was "provenance". (unless you're from France)

classic. I get to use it once, then I typo it to death!

[JeffYoung]

2nd Gen RX7 answers both of those questins -- don't have to build and can buy cheap, and it is a winner....

Don't worry, I am with you on the sale price of a race car. I probably have $50k+ (well, a lot of plus) in TR8 build and development costs since 2004...and I bet I couldn't get any more for it than Ron got for his Z car ($7k).

Me too! But...BUILD a car? $$$$$$$$...
AND...the (quite literally), $64,000 question: Will it be a winner?

Jeff, yea, sadly even $4k would be a stretch, even with it's provence! (I just had to use that word for one time in my life, LOL)

[Andy Bettencourt]

2nd Gen RX7 answers both of those questins -- don't have to build and can buy cheap, and it is a winner

Except these guys aren't asking that question...Bueller? Bueller?

They want and love their Gen 1's. Focus!!!!

[128 racecar]

Except these guys aren't asking that question...Bueller? Bueller?

They want and love their Gen 1's. Focus!!!!

Actually, the question was if anyone recalled the difference between the current rules and the ones back in the 80s. And to think I was concerned if posting in this forum would get any attention (LOL)

I appreciate the rarity of the 1st gen motors. Considering the previous cars I have vintage raced (Fiat 128, 1st gen Honda Civic 1200, and currently a Datsun 610), at least there are still 1st gen RX7s out there! It is unlikely you will ever see any of my previous models on Craigslist. Rarity is relative. I once drove 800 miles round trip for a 128 parts car.

Anyway, if practicality, availability of parts, ease to work on, decent suspensions, or reliability were requirements for vintage racing, that would eliminate 95% of the grid!!! I won my class with my Fiat a number of times because I was the only one of 10 or 15 in my class to get to the false grid for the feature!

Another factor of longevity is the frequency and level of racing. Typical race year for my is 3-4 race weekends. Likewise, while you are probably going 10/10ths, the majority of time I am driving 8/10ths- 7/10ths if there is no one to dice with. I got 8 seasons (29 race weekends) out of the motor I built for my Fiat 128. Mobil 1 is good, but so is stroking it when your buddies are on the trailer.

Is 1989 old? It's old enough for us in the VSCDA! Come out and join us- just don't put a fender on the guy next to you. Even Miatas are welcome, assuming if someone can help me figure out what the IT rules were in the 80s so since the club requires prep to that era's rules (hey, we came full circle!).

Thanks for chiming in- you IT guys are certainly an enthusiastic group, even when you don't agree with each other.

Thanks,
Marc in Indy
1975 Datsun 610 ITB rat rod vintage race refugee

[pdqracer]

To reply to "all' of the above; The carb option is a dying technology and will only get harder to get quality carb parts. The RX7 12A carb was a pain from the start to race. Some figured it out, but many still struggle to get a clean burn at al throtle positions. Corner exit is a problem for many that the fuel injection would solve.

I have no plans yet to build an IT-7R, but would welcome the option of fuel injection, even with a restrictor.

[Ron Earp]

I met a guy at the VIR tavern this past July that had done a carb conversion on a Renesis and had it in the first gen chassis. I forgot his name, nice fellow, a vet.

You could put a little Holley or Demon carb on it - no shortage whatsoever of those carb parts and there isn't going to be for a long time to come. I mean, if you're making the rules then make the rules. An carb conversion Renesis sounds plausible.