The demise of ITR at WDC

[Greg Amy]

My concern is about the future of the class at WDCR.

Then your solution is quite straightforward: stop bitching that the region is not providing to you other people that are not in your class to "race" with, and spend that effort campaigning among all those Big Fish (tm) to come out and play with you. It's not other people's responsibility to provide playmates for you, it's your responsibility to go out and bring them in.

Otherwise, you're just a big fish completely out of water...

And I'm not talking out of my ass here; I'm involved in a class that's brandy-new just this year, and I'm spending a lot of time at the track campaigning to get a lot of double-dippers in it, a lot of time off the track as a member of the advisory committee to make the class more attractive to others, and a lot of time advising other people on building cars specifically for the class. Yet, it looks like next weekend I'll be doing a solo effort in my class at WGI. You know, them's the breaks! If my class makes it, great; if not then I move on to something else.

And that's life. And baseball.

GA

[dave parker]

Then your solution is quite straightforward: stop bitching that the region is not providing to you other people that are not in your class to "race" with, and spend that effort campaigning among all those Big Fish (tm) to come out and play with you. It's not other people's responsibility to provide playmates for you, it's your responsibility to go out and bring them in.

Otherwise, you're just a big fish completely out of water...

And I'm not talking out of my ass here; I'm involved in a class that's brandy-new just this year, and I'm spending a lot of time at the track campaigning to get a lot of double-dippers in it, a lot of time off the track as a member of the advisory committee to make the class more attractive to others, and a lot of time advising other people on building cars specifically for the class. Yet, it looks like next weekend I'll be doing a solo effort in my class at WGI. You know, them's the breaks! If my class makes it, great; if not then I move on to something else.

And that's life. And baseball.

GA

Bravo! And there ends the lesson.
Waiter, check please.

Well said Greg.

cheers
dave parker

[callard]

Chuck - by that way of thinking EP, FP, GTL, & SPU should also all be running with big bore, as none of them has put even half a dozen cars out this year, and all of them are faster classes than ITR. Add STU once we get a real full-tilt car from that new class, because if they're not faster than ITR something is wrong. I'm sure the GTP drivers will thank you for that too.

Earl, did you not watch the Middle Bore race at Summit last weekend? These exact classes had an excellent race and finished for the most part on the same lap.
BB is a catch-all group for many higher HP classes with low entries. Combining appropriate classes in BB and MB groupings makes sense based on the number of cars that show up in those classes these days.
I have no problem with IT-R moving to a group with say IT-S when they can bring their numbers up. But to invade the IT-A or IT-B/IT-S race groupings right now doesn't make sense for the Region just to satisfy an ego.

[dj10]

Then your solution is quite straightforward: stop bitching that the region is not providing to you other people that are not in your class to "race" with, and spend that effort campaigning among all those Big Fish (tm) to come out and play with you. It's not other people's responsibility to provide playmates for you, it's your responsibility to go out and bring them in.GA

Greg, this is the catch 22. I'm not racing in BB hence you can't get me to go to Summit. If they take ITR out of BB we may come and play. I think the answer if ITR people will co-operate is to survey them. I bet you will either find the economy sucks maybe #1 with "Take me the hell out of BB as #2". This is the third year where construction is down so I pick and choise my races carefully, right now the PROIT is where it is at for competition for me anyway.

[erlrich]

Earl, did you not watch the Middle Bore race at Summit last weekend? These exact classes had an excellent race and finished for the most part on the same lap.
BB is a catch-all group for many higher HP classes with low entries. Combining appropriate classes in BB and MB groupings makes sense based on the number of cars that show up in those classes these days.
I have no problem with IT-R moving to a group with say IT-S when they can bring their numbers up. But to invade the IT-A or IT-B/IT-S race groupings right now doesn't make sense for the Region just to satisfy an ego.

Chuck - I agree 100%, if the only reason for moving them is to satisfy someone's ego then screw that. I race a Nissan with a truck engine in ITA (sometimes) therefore I'm not allowed to have an ego. My rationale for moving them is a little different. First, I just don't believe ITR is a good fit with GTx, ITE, AS, or T1. Those are all high HP classes (I realized everyone has a different definition of high HP) with cars that haul ass down the straights and then park in the corners; ITR cars (at least the faster ones) don't work that way. The highest HP cars in ITR should be in the mid-upper 200s, many are in the low 200s.

Second, ITR (see also the ST classes) is fairly new, and IMO we should be doing what we can to encourage the growth of the new classes. I know a lot of people will disagree with that, believing we already have too many classes or feeling that no class should get preferential treatment, but I just don't see where grouping classes so as to discourage people from participating in them makes any sense at all. That's just my opinion. If not for the fact that Dave would yell at me I would suggest that small bore is a much better place for ITR, but I don't, so I won't, but suffice it to say that I think there are several other groups more compatible with ITR than big bore.

[Greg Amy]

I'm not racing in BB hence you can't get me to go to Summit.

Dan, your situation is Catch-22 purely by your own choices. Sorry for being blunt, but quit being a big wuss. I've raced with Big Bore on occasion in my 4-cylinder front wheel drive STU/STL car without issue, so can you guys in your bad-ass God-Know-How-Much-Horsepower, rear-wheel-drive BMWs.

To ask - nay, demand - that the organizers hose someone else's (very healthy) group because you're throwing a temper tantrum is silly. Bring the numbers and you have power, but continue to boycott and your strength of position wanes further as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In the end, the choice is yours; your fate is in your own hands. Support ITR at Summit and bring the numbers, or don't. But don't bitch that it's someone else's fault, 'cause it's not.

GA

[yannisalex2000]

Guys this threat is not about fish in a pond,fucking baseball or my ego.I said I couldnt give a rats ass if I finish 1st or 20th.Its about a region that because it groups ITR with BB is killing the class.If anybody thinks that this is the best way to split up the groups then you should petition your regions to follow WDCs lead.

Nough said and to borrow a line from my friend Dan I rest my case whatever that may be.

John A.

[Rob43]

ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way.

This either needs a winky face or it's an amazing arrogant position to take. If you're serious, my concern for your collective position just took a nosedive.

K

+1. And this isn't the first time I've heard such similar blather from an ITR competitor. I'm quickly becoming less and less empathetic to the class's self-proclaimed "issues".

Suck it up, there's no crying in baseball.

I hope that this is a typo. Otherwise I am done listening.

cheers
dave parker

I have known the op John A. (at the track) for several years, I have never experienced a bad attitude from him or seen him act cocky. That's something most of us can't say, most racer's I know including myself have a big "Type A" personality when racing.

When he made this statement: "ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way." I'm quite sure this was not meant to be cocky, but just not knowing how to navigate on this forum. Most posters with Extremely low post counts make mistakes when posting, not to mention Johns thick Greek accent.

He just missed on using a smiley face.

Rob #43 ITR BMW

[dave parker]

Hi Rob
I was not aware that you could hear an accent from a typed statement.
I too think it is a typo or a failure at using Al Gore's internet.

I know John from the track as well, I know that he is not a bad guy.

However, I think that the statement that the region is killing the class because of what run group it has placed it in is foolish at best. The DC region ITR drivers are killing their own class by not participating.

I have asked that the ITR drivers rep join the discussion and have had no response from him.

I can tell you what I do know. ITR is in big bore because that is where the ITR drivers rep wanted the class to be. If the ITR drivers have an issue with that they need to take that issue up with their drivers rep.

cheers
dave parker

[dj10]

But don't bitch that it's someone else's fault, 'cause it's not.
GA

If I polled ITS & R drivers all over the NE I bet the majority wouldn't want to be in with BB. So instead of working with the majority the become obstinate a refuse to compromise. WTF Over!! Sounds like the democrates are in WDC region.

I can tell you what I do know. ITR is in big bore because that is where the ITR drivers rep wanted the class to be. If the ITR drivers have an issue with that they need to take that issue up with their drivers rep.

Dave, if your talking about Marshall I know him well and consider him a friend. I do know he a busy person as of late. I will say this, I'm am not a member of the DC region I just love to race there and have been racing Summit since the 70's. If Marshall or whoever is the ITR rep is wants to be in with ITR, they are in the minority. As I said I am not in the DC Region so I'll let you decide whats good for your region and if I like the result you'll probably see me there again. Whether you want to or not. :~)

[yannisalex2000]

I have known the op John A. (at the track) for several years, I have never experienced a bad attitude from him or seen him act cocky. That's something most of us can't say, most racer's I know including myself have a big "Type A" personality when racing.

When he made this statement: "ITR IS the biggest fish in the IT pond and should be treated that way." I'm quite sure this was not meant to be cocky, but just not knowing how to navigate on this forum. Most posters with Extremely low post counts make mistakes when posting, not to mention Johns thick Greek accent.

He just missed on using a smiley face.

Rob #43 ITR BMW

Rob thanks for the support.I LOVE YOU MAN!!!On second thought Nahh not really.

John

P.S You know probably is your fault that we are stuck with BB.LOL

[Gregg]

Good news!

After failing to get it changed over the winter, the CRC has agreed to to let ITR run with ITA/SM5/T3 at the MARRS Labor Day Double. This is an IT National Tour qualifying event and I would expect to see some of the East's best IT drivers at this event.

Unfortunately the CRC did not want to make this change for next weekend's MARRS event and this is not a permanent change, but I am confident that if all goes well over Labor Day (the last MARRS event of the season) that there's a good chance that we'll see this for all 2013 events.

[gt40jim]

So help me, not being a smartass at all ( I hope) It always takes a while when changes are implimented to see the results. ITR was never THAT big at SP. Marshall, Dan Jones, Rob Powell, Aziz who went ITS to ITR, John in Porsche, Nice guy in MBenz... Maybe a couple I forgot... Sorry.
Marshall just had changes in life that he sold off his car. Dan did not like running with BBore, told me he wasn't coming back. He has also sold his car now! Doc tried it and kept getting tangled with A sdn cars ( Marshall you had said that shouldnt happen but it did and Doc was not the fastest or the slowest in ITR by any means. He currently has the lap record at the Glen in ITR over Dan) Doc no longer has any interest in SP ITR with BBore. Ben Philips in his 968 came down and disliked the class structure, one race, asked nicely if a change could happen and then never came back and won't. If you have an ITR car in the North East now and want to have good races, you run the Pro IT series. Point is even if the structure is changed at Summit, people have left the class or have become comfortable somewhere else. ITR may not come back or may take awhile, a couple years? I feel that the problem lies MUCH deeper in SCCA, the proliferation of classes for one, Pretty soon there will be enough classes that everybody gets to win, yay... And the petty little "fiefdoms" and power struggles. Maybe I'm getting old, but I'm tired of being treated badly by "Kings for a weekend" in SCCA. Flame me all you want but I run guys in NASA and NEVER get treated badly there, Each division is a bought and paid for franchise by one individual. And he wants repeat business. If I have trouble during a race weekend, go see the man! It's fixed with a smile. Change classes mid weekend due to a crash and need to run a backup car, SURE lets get you over to registration open all weekend and fix ya up! I'll say it out in the open, I hate dealing with the old mean bast$*ds in tech at Summit Point, They have been doing it WAAY to long and have lost the idea of service to the membership. Nationals are a joke compared to my youth, they used to be a big deal, now they are mostly the same old guys and low car counts. Nasa races are getting big car counts for a reason. And the youth are there running in HPDE and Time trials moving into the race classes. SCCA is considered a deadend by a lot of the young guys starting out in racing..... RIP ITR@SP and maybe SCCA in my lifetime.
Jim Locke
99 SM NASA/SCCA
99 SM NASA/SCCA
92 SM NASA/SCCA
90 SM NASA/SCCA
87 ITS rx7 SCCA
95 ITR e36 NASA/SCCA
93 ITR e36 NASA/SCCA
99 PTD e46 NASA
82 FF SCCA

[Knestis]

You've got some legitimate beefs there, Jim, but please do not complain about the "proliferation of classes" in one of SCCA's newest classes. The people who created ITR had to make a case against that very issue in order to make it happen.

K

[yannisalex2000]

Jim I agree with you 100% but I do hope we are wrong.If it wasn't for the rule changes this year allowing my car to run in STU I wouldn't go back to SP either.Is Dan out of racing for good or is he planning something else?Anyway tell him that if he wants to come Labor Day weekend he can drive my car.

John A.

By the way a BIG THANKS to Gregg, Dave and all who voted to make the change even if temporary.

[1stgen]

If the ITR count is low in your region YOU need to get it back.
I came to run my car in the scca because they are the oldest and NON profit organization you can run with. I run in ITE with a 4 cyl turbo scirocco....yeah running big bore class with a small car is scary, but fuck is it fun. If you guys can't keep your e36 chassis'd cars up to speed...well no offense but you might have some issues...with your car..or you. Sure some of those big bore dudes park those Mustangs right in front of you, yeah it sux so drive around them. Whatever the case is while driving Jesus' own chariot and easiest car I've evr had the chance to wheel, your there to race each other, so qualify near each other and fucking race godammit. Your problem sounds more like an economics issue with the mid and south series. Here in the NEDIV were not as affected by low car counts. In fact ITR and S are coming on pretty strong here and there not even national classes. We're sorry your sandbox is small, fill it with people you want to hangout with and go have fun. I am kind of an asshole but really a nice guy.

Sorry y'all I'm a little grumpy tonight...but really come race with us in the NEDIV or try and convince some of our S and R guys to head down to you.

[evanwebb]

Two points: 1) Can you guys clean up your language please? This forum does not have a history of people cussing just for yucks as some others do. 2) That's really good news Gregg, even though I don't have an ITR car I just don't think the previous classing was right. I have a fantasy of building an ITR car someday but I will state flatly that if ITR stayed in with the big bore group I would NEVER build it. Why? Not some ridiculous made-up safety issue. Rather, because it's not fun. To me, IT cars should be grouped with other IT cars because it's more fun that way and I do think that if you go to the trouble of building and campaigning the fastest version of an IT car you should have a chance to be the fastest car on track in your group. We do this for fun, right? That's at least part of what Dan and others are saying. Anyway, bravo for the change.

[Knestis]

>> ... I do think that if you go to the trouble of building and campaigning the fastest version of an IT car you should have a chance to be the fastest car on track in your group. We do this for fun, right? That's at least part of what Dan and others are saying.

Actually, Evan, I don't think ANYONE has said that. It's refreshing to hear it, rather than a basket of red herrings about safety that actually apply to all of the slower cars in the group they want to run.

K

[dave parker]

Here is how I see this thing.
I pushed for this change. I think that for the the IT National Tour event at our Labor Day Double weekend ITR should be grouped with IT cars, not in the Big Bore group.
This move was the only hope we had of any ITR cars coming for this event.

If the ITR drivers want this to be a permanent change then I would suggest that they do two things:
1. Come and race the IT National Tour at the DC Region's Labor Day Double. Numbers talk.
2. Come to the DC Region's Open Club Racing Committee Meeting on Saturday night at the Labor Day Double ( you will be there racing and eating the FREE dinner) and tell the committee what you want for the future. Again numbers talk.

It is now in the hands of the ITR drivers. You can make it happen or not, your choice.

cheers
dave parker

[Ron Earp]

Again, why was ITR grouped with big bore cars in the first place? ITR fits perfectly wherever ITS is, and if the ITR cars are not well developed and driven they'll be slower than the top ITS cars.

Was common sense thrown out the window with grouping ITR with big bore? I attend test days that have "Over 3L" and "Under 3L" classes. I sure as hell don't run my ITS Mustang in the over 3L group although it is at 3.8L. Only takes 10 seconds of speaking with the operating authority of the test day to get that cleared up and the car in the group where it belongs.