The demise of ITR at WDC

[yannisalex2000]

Marrs 5 came and went without an ITR entry.For the past two seasons at the majority of MARRS events I was the only driver to show up and represent the class.Since I dont intend to bring my ITR car at SP again(unless ITR is moved out of B I am afraid this is the end of the class at the region.


John Alexandropoulos

#53 ITR
WDC Region

[Knestis]

It seems to be WAY to early to call it dead.

K

[RedMisted]

New class featuring many cars that would need to be built in order to race. (Wanna race a car like mine? You'll have to build one yourself, because you're not going to find an already-constructed Mustang V6 unless you offer me a ridiculous sum for mine.) Couple that with the rotten economy and it's easy to see why ITR isn't catching on. My guess is that it'll be a few years before it does, but I'm staying the course...

[benspeed]

I'm with John - classing ITR in Big Bore is a bust. I asked about moving it out before MARRS I this year and was told the rationale for why it runs with Big Bore. Being a good citizen I supported that but after the race I confirmed to the other ITR guys - no thanks, not coming back for more...

[JeffYoung]

ITR runs fine with S and A and IT7 in SEDiv and I would think that is the natural place for it.

[erlrich]

New class featuring many cars that would need to be built in order to race. (Wanna race a car like mine? You'll have to build one yourself, because you're not going to find an already-constructed Mustang V6 unless you offer me a ridiculous sum for mine.) Couple that with the rotten economy and it's easy to see why ITR isn't catching on. My guess is that it'll be a few years before it does, but I'm staying the course...

Problem is, there used to be 4-5 ITR cars that ran in the DC region on a somewhat regular basis prior to them moving into big bore. They ran with us in ITA, and with the exception of 1 or 2 individual drivers - which you get in every class - we had pretty much zero problems. Yeah, most if not all of the ITA cars were getting lapped, but hey that's just part of the multi-class racing deal.

[lateapex911]

Every dog wants to be the big dog......
But yea, ITS or the ITA group would be the best fit. Assuming car counts allow it. From what I've seen at Summit, they do. I don't understand the managements reasons for the grouping.

[gran racing]

Earl, that sounds pretty funny. Yeah, 1 or 2 drivers out of 4. LOL

ITR cars are not inexpensive to run or build. When people can run against large competitive fields in other classes, the lure diminishes for ITR. Tristian ran in ITR for a little while but ask him if he missed some of the good ITB races.

The ITS group is okay for ITR cars while there are limited numbers. Increase the fields and now you have two classed right next to each other in speed which we usually try to avoid.

I think eventually ITR will continue to grow but it'll take some time. The grouping? Hell, isn't that the same thing we tell the winged cars often times? Grow your field and you'll be able to get into a different group.

[lateapex911]

Grow your field and you'll be able to get into a different group.

Actually, Dave, it's a much different situation. The cars have fenders so they can go in most groups. And since there are such small numbers, it means there's even more flexibility...nearly ANY group could absorb another 1 or 2 cars at Summit. So I don't get why the PTB refuse to move them to a better group.

[Knestis]

I'm with John - classing ITR in Big Bore is a bust. I asked about moving it out before MARRS I this year and was told the rationale for why it runs with Big Bore. Being a good citizen I supported that but after the race I confirmed to the other ITR guys - no thanks, not coming back for more...

So out of curiosity, what was the rationale?

K

[Gregg]

ITR was moved to Big Bore for the '09 season--the same time the MARRS weekend contracted from 10 (yes 10) run groups to eight. The last year that ITR ran with ITA and ITS there was an average of two ITR cars (the same as '08). The faster of the two ITR cars commonly would lap all but one ITA car twice. This was at a time when the ITR field was not running, shall we say top notch builds. The ITR car that commonly won was running slower laps than Ed York's pre-Great Alignment ITS E36.

At the time of the contraction, the ITA/IT7/T3/SRX7 group was averaging over 40 cars (w/ a max of 50), and the ITS/ITB/SS group also averaged over 40 cars. ITR, with only two cars average was placed in BB, which:

• Was averaging < 25 cars
• Was averaging two GT1 cars
• Would place ITR in with speed-comparable cars

ITR remained at a three car average until the owner of one of the cars sold his only race car (he remains of the region's BoD), and one decided to put the restrictor his E36 and run ITS due to the larger (10+ car) fields. The 3rd car is the O.P. here.

The region moved to nine run groups last year in order to split Small Bore and SRF separately, but the number of non-ITR cars in Big Bore has dropped drastically in the past two years. The chief complaint we heard from the few ITR cars running was an issue running in the same run group as American Sedan. We are currently averaging two AS cars in BB.

So to put things in perspective there are really three MARRS run groups that ITR could currently be placed in:

1. ITS/ITB/ITC/SS -- Most of the ITB cars lose at least one lap currently, many lose two. If you place the few ITR cars in this run group, you have what is regularly the largest ITB field in the nation losing three or more laps per race. As for the ITC cars, they would likely encounter the same speed differential to the ITR cars as the ITR cars have with GT1 cars.
2. ITA/IT7/SRX7/T3 -- You will have approx. 20 ITA cars losing at least one lap, and if past history is an indicator, at least 15 will lose two laps per race.
3. BB -- the three current ITR cars would lose, at most, one lap and would be running in run group with far less density than the other two.

For the record, we did not consider placing ITR in the 40+ car SSM run group or the 35+ car SM run group.

Since Day 1 the ITR drivers have pitched the reason to be removed from BB as a safety issue. Given the dearth of GT1 cars running at the regional level (and in the MARRS series in particular), the fact that AS traditionally runs in BB w/ the same lap times w/out a perceived safety issue, as well as the sheer lack of density in that run group, the region's Club Racing Committee (CRC), which is made up of representatives from each run group as well as each of the volunteer specialties, decided to keep ITR in that run group for '11, even with lower overall turnout for events in '10.

Might the number of ITR cars increased w/out the move to BB? Perhaps, but we saw no change in the number of entrants post-move from pre-move and when coordinating our events need to plan for the interests of all of our racers. And frankly, 50 ITA/ITB/ITC/IT7/SRX7 drivers should have the same right to a good racing experience that the three ITR racers do.

[lateapex911]

Interesting gregg, and thanks for the insight.

I see a contradiction though. You are using the number of laps lost as the main determining factor, yet you pointed out that the ITR cars are running slower than the fast ITS lap times. Would putting them in the ITS group really mess up the ITB guys that much?

Locally at Lime Rock, the lead car is often an ITS car, over the ITRs. Summit is a longer track, so I'd expect the ITRs to be faster than the ITS cars, but thats not always the case.

[StephenB]

1. ITS/ITB/ITC/SS -- Most of the ITB cars lose at least one lap currently, many lose two. If you place the few ITR cars in this run group, you have what is regularly the largest ITB field in the nation losing three or more laps per race. As for the ITC cars, they would likely encounter the same speed differential to the ITR cars as the ITR cars have with GT1 cars.
2. ITA/IT7/SRX7/T3 -- You will have approx. 20 ITA cars losing at least one lap, and if past history is an indicator, at least 15 will lose two laps per race.
3. BB -- the three current ITR cars would lose, at most, one lap and would be running in run group with far less density than the other two.

I would be shocked if the ITR cars started lapping the ITS cars. I just don't see that happening but I may be wrong.

I have always been a big fan of timed races rather than laps. We all pay the same entry fee and entry fees go towards rent of the track which in turn is based on time not laps. I see no reason an ITB car gets more track time than a GT1 car. This has never and probably will never make sense to me.

Just my .02 I would love to run summit maybe someday we can get a large enough feild to make it worth the trip... or maybe I will just bring the old Audi down and play in B

Stephen

[RedMisted]

I have always been a big fan of timed races rather than laps. We all pay the same entry fee and entry fees go towards rent of the track which in turn is based on time not laps. I see no reason an ITB car gets more track time than a GT1 car. This has never and probably will never make sense to me.

My thoughts exactly.

[StephenB]

My thoughts exactly.

I have raced in ITB for 11 years and the entire time I felt this way... even though I was in one of the slowest classes and would get the least amount of laps on any given weekend...

Stephen

[Gregg]

Interesting gregg, and thanks for the insight.

I see a contradiction though. You are using the number of laps lost as the main determining factor, yet you pointed out that the ITR cars are running slower than the fast ITS lap times. Would putting them in the ITS group really mess up the ITB guys that much?

Locally at Lime Rock, the lead car is often an ITS car, over the ITRs. Summit is a longer track, so I'd expect the ITRs to be faster than the ITS cars, but thats not always the case.

What I thought I said is that they were running slower than Ed York's pre-Great Realignment ITS times.

[JeffYoung]

Ed's car was an unrestricted E36?

What I thought I said is that they were running slower than Ed York's pre-Great Realignment ITS times.

[TAC]

Well I must admit I am perplexed that we are three weeks away from the I.T.FEST and not one ITR has signed up. Usually we have a couple by now topping out at 6 max.

[seckerich]

Ed's car was an unrestricted E36?

Very unrestricted as in 2.12 VIR practice.

[JLawton]

There is something wrong if an ITR car is lapping the entire ITA field............