LRP Results, stories and vids

[Drew M]

And people wonder why I freak the hell out about basic things like locking up brakes after a spin and staying on line while being passed. :/

Speaking of, the BMW that spun in Turn 1 at the start nearly took me out when the driver let off the brake just before stopping. I was lucky the BMW to my left gave me 1/2 a car width or else I would have taken him out. No harm, no foul but that was a close one!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not much overlap at all really. To be honest, I think it was your job to lift there to avoid his rear bumper...but this defines the grey area of these things.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think a strong STL car with an immortal driver is a sub-minute ride. Think your car with 40 more ponies and a rear wing to keep it planted...

Add 40hp and a wing to my car and it's a done deal. I think STL should be a good bit quicker than ITS.

[Greg Amy]

Not much overlap at all really. To be honest, I think it was your job to lift there to avoid his rear bumper...but this defines the grey area of these things.

Had I known I would not get that working space on the exit, you know of course know I would have bailed. If the roles were reversed, knowing a car was back there somewhere I certainly would not have tracked out. Would you have...?

So my core mistake was assuming I'd be given racing room on exit. I suggest the root question is "was that a reasonable assumption"? Everything after that was pre-ordained.

There's your rhetorical question for debate.

GA

On edit: Offered for entertainment purposes, Matt says I was being retarded, that I should have known better. So we know his position on the matter... I know my expectations will be different next time I race with the 944. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Had I known I would not get that working space on the exit, you know of course know I would have bailed. If the roles were reversed, knowing a car was back there somewhere I certainly would not have tracked out. Would you have...?

So my core mistake was assuming I'd be given racing room on exit. I suggest the root question is "was that a reasonable assumption"? Everything after that was pre-ordained.

There's your rhetorical question for debate.

GA

On edit: Offered for entertainment purposes, Matt says I was being retarded, that I should have known better. So we know his position on the matter... I know my expectations will be different next time I race with the 944. - GA

It's such a tough situation. If that was the second lap, I would say you blew it. But given the frustration I can see what happened. There was just such little overlap you seemed to have gotten just as much rear bumper as side bumper. I am not sure he even knew you were there because you never got up to his window and the angle of mirror was bad to see you (although he should have).

To reference one of your earlier posts, I would have given you the 5% you had earned...and that would have (hopefully) given you the space you needed...

But half of the people think racing room should be given, half think you have to be 'more' in position to claim that space or you need to yield. So grey. Kinda wish it was more defined in the GCR.

[gran racing]

I agree, somewhat in the grey area. When should a car such as the 944 yield that much of track out and thus slow down while racing? If the driver thought you had a your nose on the outside, absolutely. At the same time if the space hasn't been defined, should a person just give the pass away? I don't think you had enough in there, which is obviously much easier for me to say watching a video.

In fact, it appeared he even moved farther left before entering the left-hander; my perception is that it was to block my re-entry onto the track.

Who knows. Maybe he was distracted by the initial contact?

Were you both in STL? If not and I were in the 944, I'd hope that I would have just let you go and see how things progressed from there.

[benspeed]

That is a tough one. Two points I see from the video - shoulda lifted and tucked in - not far enough up on his quarter (and you really gave a medium tap anyway) and no room given to you for retaking the track - he had to know you were there after the tap and should have moved over to line up the next corner anyway...easily could have given room for you to retake the surface. But you carried speed - still on the gas and kinda hit 'em again. No brake lights until too late.

What did the stewards say? Any penalties?

For me to give racing room on the track out of the corner you have to be fully alongside my quarter, nose up to doorhandle and you get the lane. If you're a nose on my bumper or behind my rear wheel I'm tracking out. But I'll always give you the lane if you're in a different class and we're not racing for position.

If I'm the overtaking car I go by the same - gotta be up to your door and I want the lane, otherwise I'm backing out and tucking up on the bumper.

This is when your ears are telling you where the overtaking car is, hard to manage the corner AND watch the mirrors. If I hear you at my window, you get the lane.

Lots of times I leave the lane open to avoid getting wrecked by the overtaking car and most of the time I still keep the position anyway. If the overtaking car gets by me I expect the same generosity in return and that makes for clean and exciting racing.

Looks like no major damage to any cars and most importantly, no injuries. Did Yannis catch up to the front by the end?

[Ron Earp]

Armchairing it from here I think you should have lifted and stayed on his bumper because there wasn't enough overlap for the beginnings of a pass. He was out of class, right? And had you like six car lengths on the straight? Looks like to me that even if you'd made the risky pass stick for short time he'd rapidly be contesting you for it within half a lap. Glad nobody was injured and everyone is ok. Were there problems in the paddock after the race regarding discussions or paper?

[ner88]

What is major damage? Yiannis's car is on it's way to the body shop, probably $2000. worth of damage. Hood, bumper, headlight and possible fender.
He raced all weekend with fields of Miatas and in the end.....
Good news, with a little banging and duck tape, he won the SM race!

[Greg Amy]

For me to give racing room on the track...

Must...resist...not...appropriate...time or place...

...you have to be fully alongside my quarter, nose up to door handle and you get the lane.

You have much better mirrors/cameras, and/or divine intervention than I do, Ben, to be able to perceive where someone is along your car other than "in the mirrors clearly behind me" or "not clearly behind me". If someone is any position where it's even remotely possible there's an overlap of even one micro-inch, they'll get the room. And I assume respect in kind, unless otherwise demonstrated. And that was clearly illustrated by the race earlier in the day.

If we're actually arguing the difference between a bumper end, mid-quarter, door handle, and middle of the door, and whether I think you can hear me or not (I blew 87dB this weekend; how good is your hearing inside that helmet, Ben?) I think we're getting a bit above our pay grade.

This is Club Racing. We're not getting paid. And I won't sit in your pee.

If you're a nose on my bumper or behind my rear wheel I'm tracking out.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that.

Armchairing it from here I think you should have lifted and stayed on his bumper because there wasn't enough overlap for the beginnings of a pass.

No disagreement. But we now have the value of hindsight knowledge that the space was going to get filled. I assumed incorrectly.

But, Ron, I ask again (rhetorically): if you were in his position, would you have tracked out? Personally, I think our individual answer to that question says a lot about us as club racers.

He was out of class, right? And had you like six car lengths on the straight?

Yes. But we were running two-plus seconds a lap slower than I was earlier in the day, my best lap earlier in the day was significantly faster than his best laps (and I'd passed him while qualifying on the pole the day before), and I had new tires to replace the high-cycle last year's I'd run on then. I was expecting to run ~3 seconds faster per lap, more than enough to gap him sufficiently during the remainder of that lap, more than enough to be ahead going down the straight.

But that's neither here nor there. It's quite apparent that in hindsight my choice to retain that overlap was a poor one (duh).

Were there problems in the paddock after the race regarding discussions or paper?

Though several witnesses were strongly encouraging me to toss paper, instead we had a non-official friendly chat with the Chief Steward. Our respective positions were as stated above: I believed that I should have been given space on track-out, he believed that I had no right to that space since he was in front he could drive the car anywhere he wanted to. The Chief Steward took no official position on the matter (none was requested), but made it clear that we have to work together on mutual respect with a lot of give-and-take. You can infer from that what you wish. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Given that video, I think you NOT protesting was a good idea.

Porsche was STU, Greg STL. I know there is some pride in being first overall but drivers need to know what is going on around them - and that isn't just on track. The info had to be available to know Greg was capable of posting much quicker lap times. They both would have been faster if the Porsche just let him go into Big Bend first, once - then he would have dissappeared as he would have had a full lap of turns to get away so the 944 wouldn't have been able to get him the next straight.

(On edit - our (collective 'our') opinions on 'racing' also differ. Some will race anyone near them - because that is 'why they came'. Some only care about cars in class and will let 'pesky' cars by so as not to risk this sort of thing. It may even depend on how many drivers are in class that day, current point standings, etc...communincating on the front end is best. Example: I like to get to grid first so I can have a few clean qualifying laps, when I don't and I am maybe 5th or so, I have walked up to the first 4 and let them know that I am coming through so look for me when the track goes green and not to swerve into me. One time as a result of a DNF in a qualifying race, I started last. I made sure that I walked up and down the grid and made eye contact with everyone I was about to get by in the first few laps so they knew there was a faster car coming much sooner than the traditional 'lapping' traffic would.)

[BruceG]

Must...resist...not...appropriate...time or place...

You have much better mirrors/cameras, and/or divine intervention than I do, Ben, to be able to perceive where someone is along your car other than "in the mirrors clearly behind me" or "not clearly behind me". If someone is any position where it's even remotely possible there's an overlap of even one micro-inch, they'll get the room. And I assume respect in kind, unless otherwise demonstrated. And that was clearly illustrated by the race earlier in the day.

If we're actually arguing the difference between a bumper end, mid-quarter, door handle, and middle of the door, and whether I think you can hear me or not (I blew 87dB this weekend; how good is your hearing inside that helmet, Ben?) I think we're getting a bit above our pay grade.

This is Club Racing. We're not getting paid. And I won't sit in your pee.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that.


No disagreement. But we now have the value of hindsight knowledge that the space was going to get filled. I assumed incorrectly.

But, Ron, I ask again (rhetorically): if you were in his position, would you have tracked out? Personally, I think our individual answer to that question says a lot about us as club racers.

Yes. But we were running two-plus seconds a lap slower than I was earlier in the day, my best lap earlier in the day was significantly faster than his best laps (and I'd passed him while qualifying on the pole the day before), and I had new tires to replace the high-cycle last year's I'd run on then. I was expecting to run ~3 seconds faster per lap, more than enough to gap him sufficiently during the remainder of that lap, more than enough to be ahead going down the straight.

But that's neither here nor there. It's quite apparent that in hindsight my choice to retain that overlap was a poor one (duh).

Though several witnesses were strongly encouraging me to toss paper, instead we had a non-official friendly chat with the Chief Steward. Our respective positions were as stated above: I believed that I should have been given space on track-out, he believed that I had no right to that space since he was in front he could drive the car anywhere he wanted to. The Chief Steward took no official position on the matter (none was requested), but made it clear that we have to work together on mutual respect with a lot of give-and-take. You can infer from that what you wish. - GA

We picked up 3 of the 5 cars with the flatbed. Only saw 1 driver on a stretcher from medical with a surgical collar being put on before the ambulance. 2 of the spec pinatas had front or rear wheel damage as well as bodywork issues. took a white jelly bean back to the Flatout trailer.

Also, 3 cheers to Dick P. in Tech for a great job. I always feel good(and safe) when I see him there!!

[BruceG]

We picked up 3 of the 5 cars with the flatbed. Only saw 1 driver on a stretcher from medical with a surgical collar being put on before the ambulance. 2 of the spec pinatas had front or rear wheel damage as well as bodywork issues. took a white jelly bean back to the Flatout trailer.

Also, 3 cheers to Dick P. in Tech for a great job. I always feel good(and safe) when I see him there!!

PS. It's so easy for those of us in the stands(or flatbed) to second quess drivers after an incident. I'd race beside Greg any day and know that he would leave room whereever possible. After talking to several drivers who crashed....sounds like lots of braking going on where it wasn't needed.

[Ron Earp]

One time as a result of a DNF in a qualifying race, I started last. I made sure that I walked up and down the grid and made eye contact with everyone I was about to get by in the first few laps so they knew there was a faster car coming much sooner than the traditional 'lapping' traffic would.)

Is that "Giving them The Eye"?

[yannisalex2000]

Its going to cost Antony $3000 to repair the damage to the car because Greg Amy ASSUMED that he would be given "racing room".A driver with Greg's experience should know that racing room is earned not given especially when fighting for first overall.A few words of apology like "Sorry guys my bad" should be offered instead of all this BS. Regards John A.

[benspeed]

Greg - I'll keep what I do on track to another thread. Not looking to pee on anybody.

Bumming weekend and $3K counts as major damage - sucks for Yiannis.

[yannisalex2000]

3k is a very conservative estimate plus a painful weekend plus a trip to the doctor for a cervical sprain whatever that is.By the way Antony is my brother in law.

[Kai Noeske]

3k is a very conservative estimate plus a painful weekend plus a trip to the doctor for a cervical sprain whatever that is.By the way Antony is my brother in law.

Whiplash injury, apparently. Ouch. You will have fun with that for a while. Had one when I was rear-ended off track. Get better mate.

[anthony1k]

First off I would like to express my sincere appreciation to corner workers for their quick flag work and to my fellow competitors for not hitting me as I was stopped facing the infield for a while. It could have been much worse. I’m sorry for the damage to Yannis’ nice Miata. Also thanks to all of those who PM’d me with support comments after the video was posted.

As far as the incident, the video tells the story. I don’t have anything to add except that I’d like to make a couple of points.

Point 1: GA-you were not as much faster as you think. I was controlling the pace and there was more speed in store as I was still learning how to drive the car with the bigger turbocharger (all legal ) and its massive turbo lag.

Point 2: GA-going on the offensive with snotty comments towards me when you are in fact at fault shows immaturity and not a lot of class IMO. I can only imagine what you’ll be throwing my way if the roles were reversed.

That’s it for now. Signing off.

[Matt93SE]

More armchair opinion here.. I know none of you personally so I have no emotional involvement here- just calling it like I see it.

1. GA should have let him have the corner.
2. Porsche should have let GA have a little room...
3. ...especially after the bump. 944 driver knew there was someone else to his left at this point and should have given room to get back on the track.
4. Yes, this is a "grey area." Did GA have enough position by the rule book to say the Porsche was at fault? No.
5. In MY OPINION, should the Porsche have given GA room? Yes.

TECHNICALLY the Porsche driver was right, but morally I say he should have given room. I would have (and do) if I was in that spot, even if it was for position in-class. I can't afford to wreck the car just to prove I was right and had a wider bumper than the guy behind me.

If a guy can come around me and put even a bumper on my outside of a sweeper, then he's obviously faster and I'm obviously holding him up elsewhere. I'd let the guy by and then give chase to see what I can learn from the guy that's faster in the turns. I can always out-drag him to the next corner if I'm as fast as I think I am.

"learning curve" with a bigger turbo or not, the Porsche was holding up in the corners and needed to get out of the way. If it were me, I'd have given the Porsche a kick in the butt coming out of each corner just to let him know I'm back there and annoy him into making a mistake.
I'd also run right up on his rear in braking just so his mirrors are full. I get a ton of passes by staring a guy down in the mirror and watching him go off in the next corner..

If I were the Steward, I'd have zapped both drivers for attempting a low-percentage pass, not giving racing room (on both sides), and not being aware of your surroundings enough to know you're being passed. 6.11.1.C and D.

But that's just me.