NHMS Triple, Memorial Day Weekend 2011

[Marianne]

One of the problems of being "visible" for oncoming cars is that not only are you visible you are also in a targe zone. Think of station 6 - straight ahead but boy are you a target!. Station 3 has a similar issue. I actually thought mving towards 10 wold be good but then if the do-do hits the fan you don't have much choice to get out of the way. And if you move the station towards 10 then you lose the ability to sort of see the beginning of the straight. I guess there is no easy solution. Unfortunately we can't get in a car and see your view. Drivers - come out some time to any station and see what our view is. Maybe what is needed is a perspective of a driver out on the station.

Marianne

[TimM ITB]

Hey all;

outstanding posts - truly! This is what differentiates us as a member driven organization - a "club". really impressive IMHO.

so, I WILL come out and give a driver's perspective! I don't want this to happen again! Dan, Marianne, I am IN. Please email at your convenience, and let's set up a date and tiem (next race at NHMS?? I won't be racing!!! - damn it!) and i will do my best to impart what a driver is thinking /seeing / doing as T11 is approaching and happening.

really good - I am more impressed than ever with our organization.

Dan and Marianne - please email me at [email protected].

thanks,

Tim M.

[rthiele]

+1!

I am deeply impressed about the constructive dialogue and active participation from everyone, that's how it should be - way to go SCCA!

[JLawton]

I won't be racing!!! - damn it!) Tim M.

I know how you can race TOMORROW!

[Mike O.]

My name is Mike Ostrander and I am the other Co-Chief of F&C. I don't have much to add to the already detailed discussion other that to re-emphasize some of the key points from an F&C perspective. The position of the flag stations is determined by 3basic parameters- driver visibility, worker safety and track infrastructure. We have had some success working with track management to implement changes to flag stations (notably 3 and 6); we are happy to discuss any issues with the drivers which relate to F&C and take them up with track management where appropriate.

Mike

[CRallo]

Dan,
I'll second Andy on his appreciation for coming on and giving your perspective. As I said in a previous comment, it's much better to learn from a situation like this than to to sit and argue about whose fault it was. This is good stuff. And you can believe that I will be paying a "little" more attention to that flag station in the future!!

+5!


In regards to the topic at hand:

I strongly believe in a standing yellow before a waving yellow! So what if you lose a passing zone! A standing yellow tells you to ease up a bit and check your surroundings... Whether its a car off the track or a waving yellow at the next station, you know to look for it. This also very simple and easy to implement.

Very reasonable scanners exist that can be tuned to the flagger network. I'd already planned to buy one, but it just got moved up my want list!

We as drivers also need to remember to keep our eyes up, be aware, drive our own line, etc. Part of this is paying attn on the pace lap and looking at all the waving flags. They are not just saying hi, nor are they bored, they are showing us where they are! We HAVE to make a habit of glancing at the station every time we drive by! I follow a basic routine which of course varies, but here is an example: "Track out, check the flag station, check your mirrors, check your gauges, take a deep breath, relax your hands(one at a time), check your mirrors, check the (next) flag station, brake, downshift, turn in..." And if you have to talk to yourself, do it!

[NATW]

I agree that this discussion is very good and I appreciate the good job our flaggers do. I like the idea of a scanner to listen to the flagging communications, because I know there are times when I just don't see the flag stations.

What frequencies do the flaggers use and how basic can a scanner be and still receive this signal?

Nat Wentworth
Volvo 142 ITB

[dickita15]

I am not a fan of automatic back up flags from my experience as a driver or a flagger. Honestly most of the time they have no effect as the incident changes in the 10 of 15 seconds from the time I see the first flag to the time a pass the incident.
I have run an F&C scanner in the car and it is not the end all you would think. Flag stations do not call flag conditions real time, no reason to, and most of the information on the net is of little value. It is not a negative, just not as useful as one might think.

[SPiFF]

ouch. Watching him try and re-fire the car was too painful knowing what was coming.

[Matt Rowe]

I am not a fan of automatic back up flags from my experience as a driver or a flagger. Honestly most of the time they have no effect as the incident changes in the 10 of 15 seconds from the time I see the first flag to the time a pass the incident.
I have run an F&C scanner in the car and it is not the end all you would think. Flag stations do not call flag conditions real time, no reason to, and most of the information on the net is of little value. It is not a negative, just not as useful as one might think.

+1 on both of these comments.

As mentioned when I see a standing yellow I know it means a stationary car that I do not need to take action to avoid, provided it doesn't move. Adding a 2nd meaning is more likely to add confusion. I know if I had seen a standing at 10 in this case I would be scanning for a car to make sure it does not pop back on in front of me. That would actually distract me from looking at the next flag station.

[TimM ITB]

quick note - just wanted to report that Dan and Marianne have invited me to come to NHMS for the July Drivers School and race weekend to give a "driver's point of view" on the flag stations, their positions, what the driver "sees", etc so that if there needs to be any upgrades or re-positioning, at least they will have input from the "driver's viewpoint". Outstanding! I have a previous committment that I am trying to re-arrange so that I can make it - at the very least for part of the weekend.

THANKS TO DAN & MARIANNE!!!

What a cool organization that we have here. Not always perfect, but a great group to be with.

Tim M.

[JLawton]

Hmmmmm. So they picked YOU to give them a drivers perspective on seeing the flag stations??


Kidding, KIDDING!!!

[Andy Bettencourt]

quick note - just wanted to report that Dan and Marianne have invited me to come to NHMS for the July Drivers School and race weekend to give a "driver's point of view" on the flag stations, their positions, what the driver "sees", etc so that if there needs to be any upgrades or re-positioning, at least they will have input from the "driver's viewpoint". Outstanding! I have a previous committment that I am trying to re-arrange so that I can make it - at the very least for part of the weekend.

THANKS TO DAN & MARIANNE!!!

What a cool organization that we have here. Not always perfect, but a great group to be with.

Tim M.

I am sure we could arrange something like we did with worker rides with 2 cars so they can see at speed what is going on.

[JLawton]

I am sure we could arrange something like we did with worker rides with 2 cars so they can see at speed what is going on.

Hmmmmmmm. I hope to have my new car by then, which does have a passenger seat, if you need drivers for that.

[Marianne]

Andy - i really liked the worker rides you did a couple of years ago. It did get lots of flaggers talking about how difficult it is to pick out stations. Tim volunteered his help at the races but the invitation is open to all drivers. Even if you can only come out for a few sessions. just no red or yellow clothing please! 8-P

Marianne

[gran racing]

but the invitation is open to all drivers.

Are you SURE you don't want a list of exceptions to that invitation? LOL!!!

[itracer]

I wanted to update everyone that was interested in this thread as to some positive changes that have happened as a result of the unfortunate incident at Turn 11 in this race on Memorial Day weekend:

First of all, as he promised earlier in this thread, Tim did come up to the track when he was not driving and walked the track with myself, the chief of F&C, and Maryanne (NER flagger and poster on this site). After looking at many options in the corner, it was determined that putting a strobe light at the end of the short shoot between Turn 10 & the corner station might help with visibility. Tim offered to pay for and provide a strobe and all necessary hardware that would be operated from station 11 (about 100’ away) if the region was willing to give it a TRY.

This past weekend I was Chief Steward for the Race Against Leukemia at NHMS. Tim came up Friday night with the light, pole, switch, cable, and an assortment of clamps to attach the light to the Armco.

During the 1st practice and qualifying sessions the light was illuminated for the first lap and the cool down lap to let the drivers see it in action. It was mentioned again during the driver’s meeting after each of those sessions.

The light was used for the rest of the weekend and I am VERY happy to report that it prevented what could have been an even worse accident than the Memorial Day weekend:

The driver of a D Sports Racer in the formula fast group reported to one of our workers that the light saved him from a head on (full speed) collision with a formula car. He felt that he would have been committed to the corner well before he saw the station had he not seen the light before entering the corner and a collision would have be unavoidable.

As Chief Steward this past weekend, I was extremely pleased that this new light prevented and incident that would have made for a very bad experience and seriously injured at least two drivers.

I have sent Tim a personal email, but I think it is important for other IT racers know that we are truly a group that looks out for our fellow competitors, and Tim is no exception. I look forward to racing with him again next year when I have my ITB Golf finished.

Jason Benagh
Chief Steward
Race Against Leukemia - NHMS
New England Region

[lateapex911]

You know, all too often we are quick to point out deficiencies in people, places, events and situations...and i am certainly guilty..maybe even a poster child for that.....
But, it's awesome to be able to chat about events and people that are exceptional..in a good way.
Thanks for the update Jason! And Tim, I've always thought you were a stand up guy, but man, you really stepped up this time. And to the rest of the folks involved, great job. I appreciate when somebody goes out of their way when they are volunteering to make things better for all involved.

This solution sounds like a vast improvement, and benefits not just the drivers, but the entire organization.

Thanks to all, esp to Mr Mullin who was generous with his time and creativity and $$.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jason and Tim - OUTSTANDING!

[JeffYoung]

Way cool. Good job guys.