March 2011 Fastrack

[preparedcivic]

Rob,

At the risk of getting into a VW vs. Honda pissing match, how about providing some evidence to support that. Like Greg, I've been using Bentley manuals for years to work on VW's, and they're solid. I know both dealer VW techs as well as guys that work at indy shops, and that's what they use, Bently manuals.

I've poked around Bentleys a fair amount in my many years of rules nerding on the pylon side of the club, including judicating protests. Where they are good, yes they are good, but on a number of things that have mattered the info plain old hasn't been there.

What will help confirm this, and frankly most any VAG car issue is to find someone with an ETKA login. That's official info there.

[Greg Amy]

What will help confirm this, and frankly most any VAG car issue is to find someone with an ETKA login. That's official info there.

Rob, the ETKA ("Elektronischer Teilekatalog" - "Electronic Part Catalog") is just the parts system catalog. It's neither service info nor vehicle-specific info, it's just the list of parts and part numbers. I've got one, I'll look, but I don't recall vehicle specs in there...

GA, former VWoA dealership parts manager...

[preparedcivic]

Rob, the ETKA ("Elektronischer Teilekatalog" - "Electronic Part Catalog") is just the parts system catalog. It's neither service info nor vehicle-specific info, it's just the list of parts and part numbers. I've got one, I'll look, but I don't recall vehicle specs in there...

GA, former VWoA dealership parts manager...

Greg:

I was thinking of it as a way to back-door into the motor via cam/pistons/intake etc. to figure out if there really was a power change in the later years of the car, but with different displacements too, everything would likely be different in any case. My last ETKA experience was in '07 or '08 trying to determine what differences there were, if any, between USDM and Canadian Audi TT's. IIRC, there were specs posted besides parts lists and graphics, but this was for a late model car.

Despite all the documentation and research over the long term on the Audi Coupes, it's amazing this one has stayed as fuzzy as it appears. Anecdotally, these cars were something I lusted over when in college, so I paid attention to them when they were new back in the day. I thought they did get a horsepower bump around '85 which would correspond to the 110/120 business. But everything is pointing towards that not being the case.

[JeffYoung]

The below is from Wiki. It shows a 118 DIN (so about 120 SAE right? or wrong?) KX motor in the 85-87 Coupe.

The problem is that every other listing for the motors that came in that car appears to be wrong.

DIN-rated motive power & torque outputs, ID codes 79 kilowatts (107 PS; 106 bhp) — WU 85 kilowatts (116 PS; 114 bhp) — KZ, WB 88 kilowatts (120 PS; 118 bhp) — KX, PX 89 kilowatts (121 PS; 119 bhp) — JT 96 kilowatts (131 PS; 129 bhp) — KE, KF, KL 98 kilowatts (133 PS; 131 bhp) — KV 100 kilowatts (136 PS; 134 bhp) — HY, KK, PR, WC, WG, WK 101 kilowatts (137 PS; 135 bhp) — HX, KU applications Audi 80 (KK/KL: 08/82-07/84), Audi 90 (KV: 06/84-12/91, HY: 06/84-03/87, KX: 01/85-03/87, JT: 08/85-03/87), Audi Coupé (KE: 08/81-07/84, KL: 08/82-07/84, HY: 08/84-07/88, KV: 08/84-07/91, KX: 01/85-07/88, JT: 08/85-12/87), Audi 100 (WG: 08/76-07/80, WC: 08/76-07/84, WB: 04/78-07/84, KF/WU: 08/82-07/84, KZ: 08/84-09/86, HX: 08/84-12/87, KU: 08/84-12/90, PX: 08/85-07/86, PR: 08/89-12/90), Audi C2 200 (WK: 10/79-09/82, WC: 10/79-07/84, KU: 08/84-07/85), Volkswagen Passat (HY: 08/84-07/88, KV: 01/85-03/88, KX: 08/85-03/88, JT: 08/85-07/88)

[pfcs]

Originally Posted by Greg Amy
Rob, the ETKA ("Elektronischer Teilekatalog" - "Electronic Part Catalog") is just the parts system catalog. It's neither service info nor vehicle-specific info, it's just the list of parts and part numbers. I've got one, I'll look, but I don't recall vehicle specs in there...

GA, former VWoA dealership parts manager...

Greg-when you open EKTA, there's a row of icons/acronyms in the upper/right area. I think its the icon that looks like a lined page-click on it and it opens a list. I think engine is the first item. Click on that and there's a list of all engine codes, HP, kW, C/R, torque?, applications, etc. At the bottom is a window to input the engine code which takes you directly to all info for that unit including apps

[JeffYoung]

Man up.

Originally Posted by Greg Amy
Rob, the ETKA ("Elektronischer Teilekatalog" - "Electronic Part Catalog") is just the parts system catalog. It's neither service info nor vehicle-specific info, it's just the list of parts and part numbers. I've got one, I'll look, but I don't recall vehicle specs in there...

GA, former VWoA dealership parts manager...

Greg-when you open EKTA, there's a row of icons/acronyms in the upper/right area. I think its the icon that looks like a lined page-click on it and it opens a list. I think engine is the first item. Click on that and there's a list of all engine codes, HP, kW, C/R, torque?, applications, etc. At the bottom is a window to input the engine code which takes you directly to all info for that unit including apps

[pfcs]

Huh? I guess I had gotten the picture that all the ITAC's evidence was permanently recorded in some kind of electronic files that all members had access to. Your record of the evidence is that someone told you on the phone? You can't pull up the file for this weight change and review all the evidence and calculations? I think I'm going to be sick

Yeah-this may be insightful of how loose and political a clubhouse can be. I wonder if I was the one who did "a lot work" on this one.
Jeff-I respect what you all are trying to do and it's well motivated, and I believe you have integrity and appreciate your amends to Steven but this stuff looks pretty weak:
"As I understand it, the actual stock hp number is given in Audi technical manuals and is 120. A few folks on the committee did a lot of work in digging that information up and, I believe it to be correct.
I think some of the Audi/VW crowd knows this but was quiest about it for a long time.

And, I'm afraid that if I was in your shoes I wouldn't be doing any better. Maybe what's simplest works best.

[JeffYoung]

I don't know the first thing about Audi 5 cylinder motors, nor can I become an expert on every car we process. I do know a fair amount about more of the motors in S and A.

So when someone who has done the work on a particular motor makes a presentation, I listen. It may be loose or "political" in your book, but we do the best we can for volunteers with at times an overwhelming amount of work.

What is simplest is a repeatable process. Far simpler than what went on before. We have that now.

And, again, are you going to tell us where you got the Ops Manual? This is getting pretty ridiculous.

Huh? I guess I had gotten the picture that all the ITAC's evidence was permanently recorded in some kind of electronic files that all members had access to. Your record of the evidence is that someone told you on the phone? You can't pull up the file for this weight change and review all the evidence and calculations? I think I'm going to be sick

Yeah-this may be insightful of how loose and political a clubhouse can be. I wonder if I was the one who did "a lot work" on this one.
Jeff-I respect what you all are trying to do and it's well motivated, and I believe you have integrity and appreciate your amends to Steven but this stuff looks pretty weak:
"As I understand it, the actual stock hp number is given in Audi technical manuals and is 120. A few folks on the committee did a lot of work in digging that information up and, I believe it to be correct.
I think some of the Audi/VW crowd knows this but was quiest about it for a long time.

And, I'm afraid that if I was in your shoes I wouldn't be doing any better. Maybe what's simplest works best.

[Bill Miller]

I've poked around Bentleys a fair amount in my many years of rules nerding on the pylon side of the club, including judicating protests. Where they are good, yes they are good, but on a number of things that have mattered the info plain old hasn't been there.

What will help confirm this, and frankly most any VAG car issue is to find someone with an ETKA login. That's official info there.

What would you like to know?

Jeff,

Like Greg said, you get a dedication award for that one. And you also make a point about it being errata rather than a deviation. Was it that kind of documentation?

Greg,

Not only don't those DVD's look sexy, you can't look back through them and remember what job you did by the grease smudges on the pages! I've got an '81-'84 Rabbit/Scirocco/Jetta Bentley that I've had for the better part of 25 years. Got a couple of dog-eared pages and a few stains on it. A little duct tape too, but that was the time I threw it across the shop.
No

[Bill Miller]

I've poked around Bentleys a fair amount in my many years of rules nerding on the pylon side of the club, including judicating protests. Where they are good, yes they are good, but on a number of things that have mattered the info plain old hasn't been there.

What will help confirm this, and frankly most any VAG car issue is to find someone with an ETKA login. That's official info there.

Just looked it up. ETKA lists the 2.2 (KX) engine at 85Kw and the 2.3(NG) engine at 100Kw. According the the converter I used on americanmachinist.com, 85Kw ~= 114 hp and 100Kw ~= 134hp. That sure seems consistent w/ the published 110 and 130 numbers in the Bentley manual (in terms of the same delta between the two engines). So, if you use 114hp instead of 110hp, you get 114*1.25*17*.98 = 2374.05 (round to 2375). So at 2490, it's still over 100# heavy.