Should NON-US motors be allowed in ST?

[Greg Amy]

Not sure if my opinion counts, LOL

Depends on which way you voted...

(Juuuust kidding.)

[lateapex911]

I voted to disallow Integra motors with Type Arrrrrrrr valve covers.

[Matt93SE]

I'll second that.

[Greg Amy]

CRB hath spoken thusly:


July Fastrack:
1. #3798/#4256/4259 (Christopher Childs/ Josh Baldwin/Matt Blehm) Include Non-USDM Engines Non-USDM engines will not be permitted in ST due to limited availability of some non-USDM engines and difficulties in compliance enforcement.

[lateapex911]

Regarding the compliance aspect, I was under the impression that only engines with full tech specs would be approved. So I'm not understanding how they can object from a compliance standpoint.

The lack of supply is a reason I hadn't thought of. My (very general) impression was that USDM engines were often more rare than non USDM engines. I'm sure certain units are rare, of course.

[Chip42]

yeah - what Jake said. "per engine, with documentation" was the approval process I thought we were supporting. in that light, the reasons given for the refusal are complete BS.

the best reason I can see for this is hopes for manufacturer invovlement with newer cars by keeping strong, known quantities out. Lack of supply is irrelevant / can be part of the approval equation. in IT we call that "warts and all" in ST it is apprently reason enough to turn people away. good job, CRB.

whatever, saves me money.

[Matt93SE]

How do you enforce compliance on a USDM engine? bore, stroke, compression, cam lift.. no?
all those specs are readily published for any engine made by a reputable automaker.

limited availability? There are about 100 SR20DET engines on ebay right now. probably another 20-30 locally within a few phone calls.

I want to meet the guy that makes these responses...... he sure sounds like an Einstein.

[CRallo]

Are they serious?!?! That is complete BS! Way to cut out half the ricer kids that we need, like it or not!

NTM class parity... Some makes really need help

Sooooooooo stupid! They had a chance here and they blew it! Now I'm even beginning to lose faith! I've been a blind SCCA follower, if they keep this up, that will change

[Greg Amy]

No clue how much is public info (in my mind, we're a club, it's all public) but there were a handful or so member letters, fewer than 10 as I recall, maybe only a couple opposed to the idea. The STAC recommended the allowance for non-USDM engines with the requirement that each engine be approved on a case-by-case basis, and only if the request was accompanied by sufficient detailed specifications to ensure proper classification (i.e., power level) and subsequent scrutineering compliance.

The request was denied by the CRB. I am not privvy to the discussion, but my inference and personal opinion is that one or more persons on the CRB is opposed to the idea of non-US-market engines no matter the details. I don't know the basis for that opposition. At this point I don't think there's anything we can do to satisfy these concerns, therefore I consider the idea stillborn.

GA

[Matt93SE]

Greg. I now make it your mission to find the retarded guy on the CRB and see to it they are removed from the Board.

I think it's hilarious they site 'lack of availability' when I emailed Peter Keane a copy of a service manual- in English no less- and there were more 240SXs produced with the SR20 than there were with the KA24.

Hell it's EASIER to get parts for the SR than for the KA. that's one of the reasons why I want to switch!

But yeah. there's surely some big old Corvette-driving redneck on the CRB that just says no. Even though STU and STL are dominated by Japanese cars, we can't use the engines they came with. SMART!

OK, I'll shut up now and start looking for junkyard parts to fix my worn out truck engine.

[Greg Amy]

OK, I'll shut up now and start looking for junkyard parts to fix my worn out truck engine.

I suggest a US-spec SR20DE with 12:1 compression, .600 cams/springs/retainers, and rods/bolts can make well over 220 ponies at the crank and a boatload of torque all the way up to 8000 RPM. That head casting is as good as the SR20VE one, you'll start with an NX high-port head, and you'll port it for airflow.

You don't need no steenkin' turbo.

GA

[Matt93SE]

Sounds good in theory.. how much will that cost me, and how do I fit the FWD head and intake mani into my car without chopping half the firewall away?


...Or I could just drop in a fawking stock SR20DET, throw in some bigger injectors and make 300hp. on 93 octane. for about $3500.

[Greg Amy]

...how do I fit the FWD head and intake mani into my car without chopping half the firewall away?

"...If an engine from a front wheel drive vehicle is installed in a rear wheel drive vehicle, alternate OEM intake manifolds may be considered."

...Or I could just drop in a fawking stock SR20DET, throw in some bigger injectors and make 300hp. on 93 octane. for about $3500.

Dude, we wouldn't give you that. To get that kinda horsepower you'd need a large restrictor thus enough weight to choke an elephant... - GA

[Z3_GoCar]

You guy's are just looking at this through your JDM colored glasses. If they'd open this up, Ben could have imported one of the 4 Porsche 968 RS turbos and we'd all be screwed. Or I could go looking for one of the few tens of S42 made, with a 315hp 2liter, I'd take your turbo's on any time.

My motor should get a different intake manifold if it were to make the expected power, which I know it won't get, so I'm looking to swap out for an older motor which will make its expected power.

[Matt93SE]

"...If an engine from a front wheel drive vehicle is installed in a rear wheel drive vehicle, alternate OEM intake manifolds may be considered."

The problem is the head is different for RWD too. Distributor is over the tranny on a FWD car.


No RWD SR of any sort was available in the states, so unless I cut a 6" hole out of the firewall, the SR can't be run in this car.

That leaves me with a VG30 (too heavy), KA (sucks), or VQ30 (too heavy). I've been on the prowl for a USDM VQ25, but nobody has a wrecked G25 that I can find around here... at least not one I'm willing to buy the whole car for.

Dude, we wouldn't give you that. To get that kinda horsepower you'd need a large restrictor thus enough weight to choke an elephant... - GA

my plan was to get the car as light as I can, then size a restrictor based on that and tune from there. we were figuring at 2600lb, we could make about 300hp.
I don't see how that's unreasonable power since several local competitors are making similar power/weight numbers.

[CRallo]

And then they'd disallow that just like they already have a couple other things...

You guy's are just looking at this through your JDM colored glasses. If they'd open this up, Ben could have imported one of the 4 Porsche 968 RS turbos and we'd all be screwed. Or I could go looking for one of the few tens of S42 made, with a 315hp 2liter, I'd take your turbo's on any time.

My motor should get a different intake manifold if it were to make the expected power, which I know it won't get, so I'm looking to swap out for an older motor which will make its expected power.

[Chip42]

Matt, ignition is now open so that argument goes away with a liberal application of $$$.

but otherwise, Z3, this is not a JDM colored glasses thing - this is a cost benefit thing. with allowance per request, there's no way a small run uber motor would be allowed. it's this sort of crap that killed a perfectly good concept. thanks.

[DoubleXL240Z]

It is a JDM-yo colored glasses thing! It is a small handful of people wanting something that most don't think necessary.
Chris says "Are they serious?!?! That is complete BS! Way to cut out half the ricer kids that we need, like it or not!" Do you really think that those ricer kids are going to go out and build an actual racecar out of their cars, I seriously doubt it! We won't allow the terry cloth shoulder belt covers!
Someone asked early on "WHY" do we need this???" 2 or 3 people said "It will be better for me" thats about what I pulled out of it.
What about me putting a Honda motor in my BMW??? If you can put a JDM-yo ZZ, SR, whatever in your car(because), why not a Honda in a BMW? Why stop there?
Chip, a liberal application of money to eliminate a distributor??
I've ruffled enough feathers! Peace out!!

[Chip42]

Way to cut out half the ricer kids that we need, like it or not!" Do you really think that those ricer kids are going to go out and build an actual racecar out of their cars, I seriously doubt it! We won't allow the terry cloth shoulder belt covers!
Someone asked early on "WHY" do we need this???" 2 or 3 people said "It will be better for me" thats about what I pulled out of it.

c'mon chris - if it's easier to get wher eyou want to go, from available sources, without creating an overdog, why not do it for the good of the class?

What about me putting a Honda motor in my BMW??? If you can put a JDM-yo ZZ, SR, whatever in your car(because), why not a Honda in a BMW? Why stop there?

what exactly are you trying to promote? one group was arguing for a low cost source of better parts for our use than those sold in the USDM, seemingly within the spirit of the rules, and a bunch of the advisory committee guys seem to agree. you are making silly arguments about brand swaps? really? how are they even an extension of one another? no one is begging for the ultra-rare uber box, they are looking for an easy "get me to the track, reliably" solution that is readily available and fits mechancially without pushing them overweight. seriously, you sound rediculous. yeah, I know, your side won...

Chip, a liberal application of money to eliminate a distributor??

the avaialble solutions are not rediculously expensive, but compared with not having to do anything to get it on track, they seem to be.

[DoubleXL240Z]

Chip, there is nothing that drastically wrong with any of the domestic offerings! Matt wants an SR motor, there are millions of KA motors and parts out there, there are tons of domestic engines out there that will fit and perform without a hitch.
What you are saying is I want a cheap whizz bang JDM-yo alternative, but if you find a JDM-yo, EDM motor thats faster than mine than it might not be allowed(case by case basis)!! Now we have a line in the sand that can be moved when there is a big wave.
Its been proven, over and over again, there are people who will spend ridiculus amounts of money to win a trophy. 70-80k IT cars are not that uncommon. This is considered a step above that class.
So, when somebody does their homework and finds that 968 Turbo motor, Cosworth something something etc that has the possibility to kill the SRs, 2gt, wha-have-yous than you'll yell that they can't play. The way it is now, we know, with reasonable certainty, what engines are out there, blacklisted a few, and we can race!!
I still don't see the need for it!