Seat Back Brace Question

[Greg Amy]

...what is the issue with slider type rails then?

I don't know the details, but I'm inferring that the CRB (or whomever) does not like the idea of using stock sliders. There's probably a back story on this, something like someone tried to use some crap that wasn't safe and a Tech guy bounced 'em, then the person leaned on the lack of guiding info in the GCR to get by. Purely my guess.

I've used stock sliders in Miatas; they fit well and are built well. But no longer...

Because this whole seat mounting issue is starting to be a real pain in the ass.

Tell me about it. I'm not quite sure anymore how much flexibility in judgment I have in approving seat mountings, nor a clear idea on what my minimal responsibility is.

GA

[seckerich]

There are FIA approved sliders available.

http://www.discoveryparts.com/cgi-bi...s_acce&pid=417

I have seen these after some serious hits in the GT cars and they are very strong. We replace them after a hit but they were in perfect shape. I know these were in the car when Jeff got rolled up the banking at Daytona. I use them in all my cars now.

[Tristan Smith]

There are FIA approved sliders available.

http://www.discoveryparts.com/cgi-bi...s_acce&pid=417

I have seen these after some serious hits in the GT cars and they are very strong. We replace them after a hit but they were in perfect shape. I know these were in the car when Jeff got rolled up the banking at Daytona. I use them in all my cars now.

They are great, I am sure. But I would like to see the data that says they are any safer than many of the OEM type sliders out there.

[Chip42]

the issue with seat mounts has to do with the fact that there ere NO guidlines regarding HOW to attach a seat in the GCR. this has been addressed recently to state lateral/lower and no sliders (with caveats). still nothing about fastener strength of any sort of demonstrable mounting standards. seats HAVE come loose in incidents because of the lack of enforcable mounting rules and a lack of desire on some scrutineers to force competitors to do something that ISN'T in the GCR. ("It says FIA and that's good enough for me" was unfortunately more common than it should have been). the OVER reaction was the language that was defeated. the currentl language is a small step toward better mounting standards without going overboard on rear braces and the like.

sliders fail. maybe yours are awesome, but without something OBVIOUS that PROVES that, like an FIA homologation, there's no way to suppor tthat at tech (no amount of human jostling is going to show the weaknesses a high G loading wreck will expose). this means a lot of seats need to be remounted. it's a lot better than the alternative, and it's cheaper than your new HnR.

[Dave Gomberg]

There are FIA approved sliders available.

http://www.discoveryparts.com/cgi-bi...s_acce&pid=417...

Those sliders are NOT FIA approved. Go to the Recaro web site http://www.recaro.com/en/product-are...brochures.html and click on the online brochure. Go to page 32. Note that they have four different fixed side mounts that have FIA approval. The Double Locking Runners do not have the FIA logo. Discovery Parts is incorrect (at best) or is trying to pass off something that is not true (at worst). Note that on their listing for these runners they say "fia".

Dave

[Knestis]

Those sliders are NOT FIA approved. Go to the Recaro web site http://www.recaro.com/en/product-are...brochures.html and click on the online brochure. Go to page 32. Note that they have four different fixed side mounts that have FIA approval. The Double Locking Runners do not have the FIA logo. Discovery Parts is incorrect (at best) or is trying to pass off something that is not true (at worst). Note that on their listing for these runners they say "fia".

Dave

So you're saying that the "Double Locking Runners" "for all racing shells" on that same page, as sold by Recaro, are not satisfactory because you can't see an FIA logo...? Really? None of their side brackets are stamped or marked in any way so they aren't legal for SCCA Club Racing either? My understanding is that as long as I'm using the hardware designed for the homologated seat, and mounting it by their established practices, it's covered.

K

[seckerich]

It always amazes me that most professional motorsports use something, it works well, and SCCA thinks we are all to F-ing stupid to use it properly. Most of the DP cars in GA as well as GT cars use this setup. SCCA will however spec every aspect of a cage with no testing where others accept "industry standard". Great input Dave. Care to elaborate on what covered up item prompted this overreaction? I know but will be glad to let you clue us in.

[Greg Amy]

This is a sure way to get the rule changed - and I apologize to those that are thinking the same thing - but the new rule states:

Seats with a back not attached to the main roll hoop or its cross bracing may not be mounted to the stock runners unless they are the FIA homologated seats specified in an FIA homologated race car.

Notice my bolded part. There's nothing prohibiting non-stock runners/sliders from being used. I'm I'm just getting a major giggle about the "FIA homologated race car" part...

Yeah, I want to know the back story on this, too. I'm guessing it's because of someone being a d**k.

GA

[Chip42]

if the seat is mounted to a Car's factory sliders, it must be a homologated seat mount (I don't know if this even exists, a porsche 911 cup car, maybe?). An aftermarket slider that is NOT FIA approved is a grey area, but should be disallowed by the same logic I outlined above (earleir post). if the seat mount isn't marked, have some sort of proof that it is an FIA approved slider. sliders are not homologated with FIA seats on list 12 (8855-1999) and most likely not those to 8862-2009, which have specific mounts, possibly sliders, used during homologation and those part numbers being required for the homologation to be honored (by FIA). There is no FIA homologation for seat mounts themselves, and sliders are not said to be used in the common standard (8855-1999) so there's no "right" answer here.

A fixed mount has near zero requirements OTHER than it tie to the seat using the homologated bosses (side or bottom). THIS remains a potential problem, but if you and your scrutineer are comfortable with you sitting there, go ahead. if the mount is inadequate, it's your funeral.

you could argue all day about it, but there's a big hole in the rules about fixturing strength. stock sliders out, the assumption I feel is that aftermarket are to be FIA approved, but there's really no homoogation standard for that. so... yeah.

[seckerich]

You are correct. Much safer to have a plastic or fiberglass seat with a pole attached to the back and be perfectly legal to the rule as written by SCCA. At least it has bolts and washers through the stock sheet metal floor to kep it secure. We know that is much safer than a proper double locking, full wrap around slider. Classic.

[jumbojimbo]

...An aftermarket slider that is NOT FIA approved is a grey area, but should be disallowed by the same logic I outlined above (earleir post).

I'm not quite getting you.

Are you saying that by reasonable logic it would only make sense to not allow aftermarket sliders although it appears the GCR is not doing so?

Or are you saying that applying the GCR rule that logic says that aftermarket sliders are not legal?

Because there are two questions here. GCR Legal/Not legal and safe/not safe. I can't tell which one you are trying to answer.

I appreciate the value of the safe/not safe question, I just have trouble sometimes wading thru a bunch of those to get to the legal/not legal answer.

[Chip42]

I'm not quite getting you.

not safe is a back brace on a composite seat, with a mount fab'ed by the owner. some FIA seats have back brace mounts built in. These are safe, and in the case of Racetech, required to be in conformance to 8862-2009. Racetech is the only 1 out of 4 seat manufacturers on that list to homologate their seats with back braces. only about 10 8855-1999 seats were homologated with a back brace, all but 3 of those are Racetech (the others are GM and BMW, I might have missed one more). The rest are only lateral or lower mounting to an unspecified bracket.

not safe is a shotty mounting of the seat to the thin floorboard of a 50 year old production car using bolts and standard washers. or 10 years old. still too thin.

not safe is a lot of production car seat sliders being used to mount a racing seat. often this is more true if the sliders are modified.

the rules state no FACTORY sliders wihtouyt a back brace. this is a good start, I guess - the back brace requirement still needs to be eliminated for seats that aren't designed for it, and such seats need to be mounted appropriately or disallowed, period.

FIA does NOT homologate seat mounts EXCEPT those homologated WITH the seat to 8862-2009 (tech list 40). on the Recarro brochure page cited above, the specific models homologated with those seat mounts are called out under the bold "Recaro racing shells" (for what it's worth, the seat mount cited in the homologation is Recaro PN 7307802). so we are left with having to DECIDE, in a repeatable manner, if an aftermarket, adjustable seat mount is sufficiently strong for mounting a racing seat because the GCR does not address this (except by omission), nor does the FIA ( which I feel the GCR is pointing to for acceptance criteria based on wording that was in the proposed rules, and since stricken / not adopted).

Most if not all of the adjustable seat mounts offered by the seat OEMs for use in motorsports are more than sufficient, but other aftermarket sliders often times are not. ditto many (not all) car OE sliding mounts. without some sort of identification and testing, it's too friggin hard to say what's good enough, objectively. SCCA chose to not trust what came in the car, and anything else is fair game. I think the restriction should be tighter than that, and manufacturer should be evident at minimum, and be a manufacturer of note with FIA homologated product, OR a list of allowed sliding mounts needs to be generated to get around the issue.

STATIC mounting remains, to me, and issue because the specification in the GCR are too slim and inadequate for making a reasonable baseline standard for mounting strenght. all one needs to do is adapt some of the rules from seat belt mounting for this purpose (load spreading washers, minimum hardware grades, etc...) to make a big improvement to the rules as they stand.

I wrote a LOT of letters and did a lot of leg work (phone work) talking to a lot of seat manufacturers, resellers, and reps, taking measurements, and getting information to shoot down the back brace requirements as they were floated. what we have now is an imperfect rule thats a lot better than the potential alternative would have been (requireing back braces on any seat without FIA approved mounts, which don't REALLY exist).

my appologies, steve, if I came accross in support of a back brace bolted to holes drilled in a composite seat. I wouldn't waste time crash testing such a setup for fear of writing off an expensive dummy. it's a ludicrously bad idea, and rather than encouraged, it should disallowed outright.

the trouble here is that many club racers aren't building to GrandAm quality, or on a GrandAm budget. they might have a welder... and a few dollars, and oh shit, this rule just changed... oh, look - these mounts from APC fit my honda, easy button! ouch - I'm dead. there's a BIG technology and prep level variation in the padock. anyone who works tech (like steve, tGA, myself, many others) knows this very well. the rules have to address this to keep the unsafe out, and minimize arguments and subjective mistakes at the tech shed.

[Chip42]

Care to elaborate on what covered up item prompted this overreaction? I know but will be glad to let you clue us in.

I'd LOVE to know what you're talking about.

and that Recaro mount, even if it WERE homologated, could be argued under the current rules as only legal when paired to an 8855-1999 seat whcih was homologated using lower mounting - a small minority of the seats from that list.

again - the rules need to be made better by people who know WTF they are talking about (like you, steve), and I got the impression from the rules being floated last year that whoever's writing them DOESN'T have a clue. that mount, on a good 8855 seat, should pass muster. period.

[Knestis]

See, this is the kind of thing that drives me insane about how we approach safety. I go and buy the best bits I can find, spend real $$ with a reputable manufacturer with tons of motor sports experience, work hard to engineer their parts into my vehicle...

...and then someone who wants to write a self-enforcing rule obliterates my hard work and decision making. I'd be fine with a non-sliding bracket that was pop riveted to the floor but the proper stuff that goes in GT cars all over the world isn't OK...?

I got told at the ARRC that I couldn't mount my FIA shoulder harnesses the way the manufacturer describes, either.

Argh.

K

EDIT for Chip - the side brackets bolt to the sliders.

[seckerich]

We are on the same page Chip. The sliders that are used in everything from GA to Porsche Cup are full containment, double locking and meet the requirements as written today. They have approved side or bottom mounts for the seat spec bolted to them with the specified grade and size of hardware. Unless the seat manufacturer designs the back brace system with the seat it is dangerous and opens legal liability SCCA does not want to deal with. Where we really agree is how badly some seat systems are then mounted to the car. Yet they would be legal as Kirk mentions. I have seen enough to be confident in my setup. I even designed a full width , movable back brace in case the proposed rule went through. Glad it is not needed.

[Chip42]

EDIT for Chip - the side brackets bolt to the sliders.

yeah I know but a lot of seats could be bolted to the bottom mounts that are there and NOT homologated. I was thinking of that installation.

I'm glad we're all on the same page. I'll shut up now.

[Streetwise guy]

This is a question purely to satisfy my curiosity. I know in Canada FIA trumps all. The FIA cage rules have a very specific and practically incomprehensible set of instructions and drawings on how to mount your FIA seat. If you mount your seat using the FIA guidelines, and carry the rules with you to show the inspectors, would SCCA have to accept it, or does the SCCA consider itself the final authority on these issues?

Same question applies to cage construction.

[Dave Gomberg]

So you're saying that the "Double Locking Runners" "for all racing shells" on that same page, as sold by Recaro, are not satisfactory because you can't see an FIA logo...? Really? None of their side brackets are stamped or marked in any way so they aren't legal for SCCA Club Racing either? My understanding is that as long as I'm using the hardware designed for the homologated seat, and mounting it by their established practices, it's covered.

K

Nothwithstanding any deficiencies in the current wording in 9.3.41, please note the following correspondence (answer at top, question below).

Dave
--------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Gomberg,

Thank you for your email. The side mounts are specific to a couple of seats that they have been tested with for the FIA Homoligation, to ensure you get the correct side mounts you will have to match the seat model with the side mounts. If you are unsure please let me know which model of seat you have so that I can then let you know which side mounts are available for that model.

The double locking runners don't have an FIA Homoligation, all the products that we have with FIA Homoligation will have the logo with the product, or it will be stated in the description. If you have any questions please contact me.

Kind regards

Tom Hemus
Sales Coordinator
_______________

RECARO UK
Holly Farm Business Park
Honiley
Warwickshire
CV8 1NP

Tel: 01926 484111
Fax: 01926 484220
email: [email protected]
Website www.recaro.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Gomberg [mailto[email protected]]
Sent: 07 February 2011 22:23
To: info.gb
Subject: FIA seat mounts

Hello:

I have a question about Recaro racing seat mounts.

On page 33 of the "Seat Range" brochure available on the Recaro web site, there are four sidemounts that are accompanied by an FIA logo. One would reasonably assume that all these mounts are acceptable for the installation of an FIA homologated Recaro racing shell in a car to be raced with a sanctioning body that requires seats that are FIA homologated.

Also on that page is a "Double locking runners" assembly which has no FIA logo. My question is this: can this runner assembly be used with a Recaro FIA homologated shell and still meet the FIA requirements as established in either the 8855-1999 or 8862-2009 FIA standards?

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer this query.

Dave Gomberg

[Chip42]

but, per the GCR, they ARE legal.

to streetwise:
if you mounted your seat in accordance with FIA regs, it would pass SCCA inspection without documentation. our rules are pretty lax, only STOCK sliders are made to be braced by a back brace (unless it's a non FIA seat). For cages you had better meet the SCCA regs. I think the ONLY exception are porsche cup cars, specifically. I may be wrong there. the good news is that most (not all) FIA cages will meet the CGR requirements.

it's strange that "we" apparently think we are so much smarter than the FIA. we go back and forth between them and SFI, and it leads to a lot of inconsistancy, and some idiodicly restrictive rules for safety gear.

[Knestis]

Thanks for sharing that, Dave. It's worrisome since that's not what I understood when i purchased them but it is what it is. It's frustrating that every year that goes by, it's increasingly hard to do the right thing - and we haven't really addressed the root issues among those who throw crap together...

K