Rental Costs

[Greg Amy]

So, Jeff, when are we doing an enduro?

No kidding. I'm in, too, and I'll even toss in a few cases of beer to boot!

[Bill Miller]

I've sort of worked on a damage agreement but don't know how to do it properly. I listed out prices for things damaged with an overall price if the car is completely totaled in a wreck.

I'm not sure how you do this ahead of time. Having a wad-up price is one thing, but I don't know how you can pre-price damage. Even failure stuff. My suggestion would be to talk off-line w/ Kirk about setting up a contract that includes a damage agreement. He's been doing this for a few years now, and his it pretty well down. Having worked with him, I can't say enough good things about how the operation is run. I'm sure he will bring up things that you probably haven't considered.

Something I haven't seen in any of your costs, is what it's going to cost for your crew. You have to provide food and accommodations for them.

I'll also add something that another guy that I know that runs an enduro rental program had set up. Mind you, this is something that all of the drivers have to agree on. You take the total # of drivers and add 1 (e.g. 4 drivers + 1 = 5). In the event of damage, each driver pays 1/(#drivers + 1), and the person that was in the car at the time pays 2/(#drivers + 1). In the 4 driver example, each driver would pay 20% (1/5) of the damage bill, and the person in the car at the time would pay the extra share, or 40% (2/5). I'm not saying that this is a better or worse way to do it, just another option that I've seen used.

Then there are things like mechanical failures. Some are the result of use/abuse, and some are the result of defective parts. You need to have how you are going to handle those things spelled out up front, and make sure everyone involved understands. It's not so much about what is the best way to handle it, but more to the point about having it covered up front and making sure everyone understands and signs-off on it. The last thing you want is to create a situation that you didn't address. For example, lets say you have a hub failure that was the result of a defective part (and the forensics can be inconclusive). This hub failure causes a wheel to leave the car at a very inopportune time (can't imagine when it would be a good time for a wheel to leave the car), and the car ends up getting wadded up into a ball. I can tell you, there will be a lot of unhappy people if you have not already addressed how you will handle a case like that. A driver sure isn't going to want to eat the cost of the car if it was related to a defective part, and the car owner is not going to be happy if the driver feels no obligation to pay. Like I said, how you handle it is up to you, but you need to get it taken care of ahead of time, and everyone has to understand and agree to it. If you don't treat this like a business deal, and something goes south, it has the potential to get really ugly.

[callard]

I've been running enduros for 20 years now and have only lost a LOT of money. As Kirk knows, the car owner winds up subsidizing quite a bit.
One of the first lessons I learned was not to expect to sprint race and enduro race the same car. When (not if) the car gets wadded up you are out of the sprint racing scene until its replaced.
Your tire guy is a nice to have but you had better get real friendly with a guy who owns a frame machine and can stretch your car tomorrow. Then the body shop, then the paint shop while waiting for all them trick replacement parts to arrive via Fed Ex. Then re-assembly and testing. Whoops, you've missed the next couple Regionals. Oh, and your buddies seem to have other things planned when you need them. Checkbook renters don't solve any of these issues for you and create another collection problem even with an ironclad rental agreement.
Stick with the Regionals and look for another tub for a future enduro effort.
Chuck

[Knestis]

No kidding. I'm in, too, and I'll even toss in a few cases of beer to boot!

Me, too! Er, four...?

K

[Bill Miller]

Me, too! Er, four...?

K

I can bring the gumbo and the Yuengling!

[JLawton]

Me, too! Er, four...?

K

I would love to do an enduro with the Saturn............. But I'm happy when I can get through a sprint race without something breaking!!!

[lateapex911]

I would love to do an enduro with the Saturn............. But I'm happy when I can get through a sprint race without something breaking!!!

FINE, we'll do it in my car.

(I can't WAIT to hear the responses to that, LOL)

[Knestis]

I'll just run around the room yelling, "RAAAAANG, RAAAAAAAANG!" at the top of my lungs instead...

K

[gran racing]

(I can't WAIT to hear the responses to that, LOL)

Ummm, Okay!!!

[tyler raatz]

Our basic rental rates for the ITA Civic,
our ITA Miata (2010 13hr ) and SM are pretty much the same
STL Miata is a bit more.
This is for a known winning package...

Single SARRC $1200
Double SARRC $1800
Standard ECR with SARRC $1000 over SARRC fee
ECR by itself $1500
ECR with 1 car owner as 2nd driver $850
ARRC or 3hr Enduro $2000
Mid Ohio 8hr $1500/paying driver, 4 drivers + tow fee
VIR 13 up to $1800/paying driver, 4 drivers
NJMP Devil in the dark 12hrs (dependant on tow cost) up to $1800/driver, 4 drivers
All drivers for the big enduros split food cost and lodging bill for the crew, crew pays zero to help us.
$2000 damage deposit paid in full before turning a wheel in the car, $12000 max responsibility for a totaled car.

I fully agree with what everyone else is saying. Get a year of racing under your belt, prove what the car can do, rent to buddies for cheap to start out. You will be amazed at the amount of work it takes to prep a front running enduro car, it is expensive and necessary to keep arive and drive renters coming back for more.

Tyler Raatz
-C&R Motorsports-
-Road Race gear Sports car rentals-

[lateapex911]

Tyler, thanks for sharing the info. One aspect that hasn't really been mentioned but can and does happen is, what happens when say I give you the up front $2000, and my fee, and the money for the crew food and lodging for an enduro, and the first driver stuffs it into the turn 11 wall at RA in some "I'm' pitting" screw up, and I'm left standing with my suit and helmet on, never having turned a wheel? (And, lets say the other driver was in for qualifying and the session got redflagged so I didn't turn a wheel then).

(I mention this, because it's an aspect of racing that sucks all around, but if you don't deal with it upfront, there can be tears shed after)

[callard]

what happens when say I give you the up front $2000, and my fee, and the money for the crew food and lodging for an enduro, and the first driver stuffs it

Easy. The beer party starts early for your team!

[Simon T.]

Tyler, thanks for sharing the info. One aspect that hasn't really been mentioned but can and does happen is, what happens when say I give you the up front $2000, and my fee, and the money for the crew food and lodging for an enduro, and the first driver stuffs it into the turn 11 wall at RA in some "I'm' pitting" screw up, and I'm left standing with my suit and helmet on, never having turned a wheel? (And, lets say the other driver was in for qualifying and the session got redflagged so I didn't turn a wheel then).

(I mention this, because it's an aspect of racing that sucks all around, but if you don't deal with it upfront, there can be tears shed after)

That's the exact thought I had yesterday, I'm interested to see input on that.

Thanks for posting those prices Tyler that's a good comparison.

[Simon T.]

While we're on the cost subject, I've added up what I think is a good year budget, although it's horrifying.

I got a little under $10,000 for six races or so and that's not including towing costs, oil changes, extra parts, etc. It includes entry fees, tires, food, gas, brake pads, and that's about it. Does that sound right?

[lateapex911]

The "not includings" is far more significant:

The paper towels, brake kleen, bearings, hubs, pressure plates (while you're at it on the clutch), replaced mufflers, bodywork form the newb who t boned you in the corner at the end of the straight when he tried the 1 marker, the replaced windshield from the stone that got thrown up, the replaced master switch that fried on grid and cost you that race, (and the wire and connectors and the special crimp too you got because you thought that was the problem, the fuel filters, the new fuel system because the tank has rust, the blown out tire on the tow vehicle, the gloves and pads for your crew guys, the containers to hold all the spares that go to the track, ....and all the stupid two and one day shipping charges to get the part that just snapped when you went to load the car shipped to you in time for your race so you don't 'waste' the time you've locked into taking off from work and the entry fee......should I go on?

[Knestis]

To Jake's question, that's kind of how it goes...

The problem is that for the team/car owner, almost all of the costs are sunk at that point. Thank goodness we've never had that happen. Well, we DID have it happen when Greg got Miata'd the first time on lap 4 or whatever it was, but Cameron and the guys got us back in after just a few minutes...

That's also why as the owner, my default preference is to go last in the rotation, to help assure that everyone gets some track time just in case. The wacky thing is that, over and over, my co-drivers have elected to put me in FIRST, the thought being that they were less likely to get caught up in the early silliness.

K

[Simon T.]

The "not includings" is far more significant:

The paper towels, brake kleen, bearings, hubs, pressure plates (while you're at it on the clutch), replaced mufflers, bodywork form the newb who t boned you in the corner at the end of the straight when he tried the 1 marker, the replaced windshield from the stone that got thrown up, the replaced master switch that fried on grid and cost you that race, (and the wire and connectors and the special crimp too you got because you thought that was the problem, the fuel filters, the new fuel system because the tank has rust, the blown out tire on the tow vehicle, the gloves and pads for your crew guys, the containers to hold all the spares that go to the track, ....and all the stupid two and one day shipping charges to get the part that just snapped when you went to load the car shipped to you in time for your race so you don't 'waste' the time you've locked into taking off from work and the entry fee......should I go on?

Who wants to buy a Neon?

[Flyinglizard]

I figure the Chumpcar VW cost at $200per hr. The ITB, cost about 300perhr. The tires are most of the varience.
The Dot 300 tread wear rating, Dunlop DZ 101, last about 10 hr on the LF on my 2000# car.
I have around 10 real nice , real world drivers, (from all over the US.) If they dont get to drive, they get a credit at the next race. If they wreck the car, they fix it. Simple. I had my first DNF last week( 16 yrs) in the B car, when a driver tossed the alt/water pump belt and drove it until it stopped moving. I bumped the drivers around into the A car and all had some seat time.
I will next install large warning lights for overhot, and charging system.
The rental rates are usually 850 per seat, for twin 7hr races.( 2 hrs per day), $950 for the 14 hr @ Sebring, (3 hrs)
Fuel is added at about 80gal of 100LL av gas.
The car gets all new front hubs,axles, etc every 20hrs. The pre-prep is about 2- 4 days shop time.
One car, has 4 partners that pay into a fund for tires, repairs, etc.This car is a contender for overall win. The stints are 2hrs. (max time allowed)
One car is a straight rental. Priority is Fun, stints of 1 hr.
The VW has been the cheapest cost per hour of any of the cars that I have had. Parts are cheap and available.
I am scared to do the actual cost accounting. Quick numbers are about $1000 loss per race.
MM

[tyler raatz]

[QUOTE=Knestis;317839]To Jake's question, that's kind of how it goes...

The problem is that for the team/car owner, almost all of the costs are sunk at that point. Thank goodness we've never had that happen. Well, we DID have it happen when Greg got Miata'd the first time on lap 4 or whatever it was, but Cameron and the guys got us back in after just a few minutes...

That's also why as the owner, my default preference is to go last in the rotation, to help assure that everyone gets some track time just in case. The wacky thing is that, over and over, my co-drivers have elected to put me in FIRST, the thought being that they were less likely to get caught up in the early silliness.

K[/QUOTE

I was hoping you would answer this for me, thanks.
Kirk is right, before the green ever drops, the car owner is out the entry fee, multiple sets of tires, 150 gal+ fuel, towing and housing expenses, tons of money spent in meticulous prep of the car, etc. It is not cheap to do it right.
So as an owner, I do not offer refunds in the event of an accident. It is important to choose your drivers wisely for the big races, drivers should trust in eachothe to take care of the equipment and make it to the finish. I suppose there could be an agreement amongst the renters that if driver A wads up the car 1st stint out, he partially reimburses drivers B & C. This however would be totaly amongst the renters only and never a part of MY rental agreement.

[JLawton]

While we're on the cost subject, I've added up what I think is a good year budget, although it's horrifying.

I got a little under $10,000 for six races or so and that's not including towing costs, oil changes, extra parts, etc. It includes entry fees, tires, food, gas, brake pads, and that's about it. Does that sound right?

Are you talking an enduro season?

See my note on your other thread. I was able to do a full season for $5K in a 944 when I first started. Was I slow? Hell yeah!! but I was out there having fun and learning. I'd have to look back but I think I had a couple of seasons in my ITB rabbitt for about the same. But I was also lucky I had no major failures or crashes.

You don't EVEN want to know what I spent this past season to win the NARRC championship..............

If you want to do the responsible thing financially? Don't race.......... We're all whacked to be doing this..........