Rental Costs

[Simon T.]

I am going to be renting out my extra seats for enduros this year and need an idea on costs so am asking what YOU would pay for a seat in the car. I have some ideas, but I'd like to see if I'm too low or too high.

The car is a Neon ACR, I have no track time for the car as an IT car as it has only ran as an SSC car. The engine was rebuilt not that long ago with no race mileage just some autocross and one track day. The suspension currently is the typical ACR package which is adjustable Konis, Mopar springs, sway bars, and all new bushings.

My home track is Road Atlanta, it will cost me $30 to get it there towing it.

So just curious, what is a good price for say 3 hour races, 8 hour, etc. The longest race I'm looking at is the 8 hour with NASA in December. I'd like to do the VIR 13 hour if I had the funding.

I want the rental cost to include tires, brakes, etc. It's very easy on brakes and tires, we will probably be using BFGoodrich R1s.

Also how much seat time do renting drivers want, I know seat time is everything, but realistically in a three hour enduro with just two drivers is an hour and a half each worth the cost of renting?

I have a chance to race with the PBOC at Road Atlanta at the end of the month, there is a three hour enduro on Friday including a 30 minute practice and 30 minute qualifying before the race. It would be my first race, giving me a PBOC license, I don't have any other license yet. I missed the double school with SCCA at Roebling due to my car needing a bit more and some unexpected medical expenses for our chinchilla.

[lateapex911]

Simon, I'm going to suggest that you might want to get a lic and a few races under your belt first. See how the car does in shorter races, get a good handle on how it will handle being driven HARD. Track what breaks, what wears, what needs replacing. Renters do NOT want a car that they don't get to drive because a bearing failed. Good prep is HUGE.

Second, there's a significant learning curve to enduros. You'll need equipment, and crew to man that equipment. That crew should be paid, fed and housed. Renters usually look for a chance to win, (or contend) and not having the team support/well prepped car, etc means they won't see that chance.

Now you CAN do it on a shoestring, but...failure is more likely.

Kirk knows all the numbers, and, not coincidentally, a ride in his car is not on the cheaper side of things. That's because he understands REAL accounting.
In other words, every time your car goes on track, you are wearing it out. You'll need brakes, a transmission, new shocks, sparkplugs airfilters, oil, oil filters and a rebuild for the engine because the car is being used. You have to charge for that..not just the gas and tires.
If you end up NOT charging correctly for that, and YOU pay for all that stuff later, you just performed a charity to others who used up your car.

I'm guessing the idea is to defray your costs of ownership, so figuring out your true costs* first will tell you how much you have to charge.
Now, whether that aligns with what people WILL pay, is another story.

* your true costs will ALWAYS be higher than you think. That 25 dollar case of oil? You paid sales tax on that. So it's not $25. People forget this stuff, they don't account for all the things that get used up. Brakecleaner, tools, paper towels, grease, worn out and broken jacks...it all adds up, and people are invariably wrong with their numbers. Also, certain cars are much sturdier and cheaper machines to run. It's no coincidence that Miatas are the most popular rental ride...

[Simon T.]

Simon, I'm going to suggest that you might want to get a lic and a few races under your belt first. See how the car does in shorter races, get a good handle on how it will handle being driven HARD. Track what breaks, what wears, what needs replacing. Renters do NOT want a car that they don't get to drive because a bearing failed. Good prep is HUGE.

Second, there's a significant learning curve to enduros. You'll need equipment, and crew to man that equipment. That crew should be paid, fed and housed. Renters usually look for a chance to win, (or contend) and not having the team support/well prepped car, etc means they won't see that chance.

Now you CAN do it on a shoestring, but...failure is more likely.

Kirk knows all the numbers, and, not coincidentally, a ride in his car is not on the cheaper side of things. That's because he understands REAL accounting.
In other words, every time your car goes on track, you are wearing it out. You'll need brakes, a transmission, new shocks, sparkplugs airfilters, oil, oil filters and a rebuild for the engine because the car is being used. You have to charge for that..not just the gas and tires.
If you end up NOT charging correctly for that, and YOU pay for all that stuff later, you just performed a charity to others who used up your car.

I'm guessing the idea is to defray your costs of ownership, so figuring out your true costs* first will tell you how much you have to charge.
Now, whether that aligns with what people WILL pay, is another story.

* your true costs will ALWAYS be higher than you think. That 25 dollar case of oil? You paid sales tax on that. So it's not $25. People forget this stuff, they don't account for all the things that get used up. Brakecleaner, tools, paper towels, grease, worn out and broken jacks...it all adds up, and people are invariably wrong with their numbers. Also, certain cars are much sturdier and cheaper machines to run. It's no coincidence that Miatas are the most popular rental ride...

Great information and thank you!

I do plan on racing it before renting it, I just mentioned the PBOC race as an example of seat time.

I also have a crew of guys and a few girls entirely willing to work for food (I guess that's the benefit of being young, we're all broke and hungry ).

All great points about the true costs. I'll keep all of that in mind. Luckily running a Neon is VERY cheap for spare parts. Like you said though I will definitely be running the car myself first, then another driver who will be driving with me in some enduros, him and I will do an enduro or two to get it all sorted out so when a paying driver does come we will be good to go. Obviously a season doesn't have much time to really do all of that but my biggest goal is to at the very least run strongly at the NASA 8 hour. I've always been a huge fan of endurance racing.

Like I said though, really good points, I really have not put much thought into the true wear and tear it's causing and that I will end up paying for it SOMETIME.

[Cobrar05]

make it a V8 car like mine and then you are into some real money.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Simon,

No disrespect intended...I love the initiative, but if you have to rent out your car to afford racing, you can't afford racing and you shouldn't do it.

An enduro rental needs to have NEW everything (hubs, rotors, pads, fluids, maybe clutch, tires, etc) and you need to keep on top of those things so you minimize the chance of a mechanical DNF. You also need to have spares, enough spares to get that car back on track WHEN (not if) an incident occures. Suspension, transmission, ECU, etc. You will need rain tires too. You will need a strong contract. You will need to set expectations. Feel the pain yet?

Rental rides that actually MAKE money, require drivers who are willing to pay real money for a seat. With that money comes expectations about service levels - and I am not sure you are ready for what that really means. It takes time to develop a good program. Trust me.

It's just really a HUGE risk for not much gain.

[lateapex911]

Yea, Andy hit it: Pleasing customers is dependent on setting, then meeting or exceeding expectations.

Now, Simon might be looking at another angle, the 'rent to buddies' angle, and he might just want to make sure he's covered. But, even so, it's all about setting expectations, covering your own ass, and when money changes hands, people get, you know, 'different'.

[Simon T.]

make it a V8 car like mine and then you are into some real money.

I'm not trying to make money, there is no money in racing everyone knows that just trying to do enduros and be as fair as possible for other drivers.

Simon,

No disrespect intended...I love the initiative, but if you have to rent out your car to afford racing, you can't afford racing and you shouldn't do it.

An enduro rental needs to have NEW everything (hubs, rotors, pads, fluids, maybe clutch, tires, etc) and you need to keep on top of those things so you minimize the chance of a mechanical DNF. You also need to have spares, enough spares to get that car back on track WHEN (not if) an incident occures. Suspension, transmission, ECU, etc. You will need rain tires too. You will need a strong contract. You will need to set expectations. Feel the pain yet?

Rental rides that actually MAKE money, require drivers who are willing to pay real money for a seat. With that money comes expectations about service levels - and I am not sure you are ready for what that really means. It takes time to develop a good program. Trust me.

It's just really a HUGE risk for not much gain.

I'm not doing it to FUND my racing, but do have in mind if done right I can at least not really spend too much on enduros. I've been collecting large amounts of spares as well but I've always been sort of a spare freak since my first car, there is nothing like going into the parts shed at home to get something you need.

I personally believe the people who will be working as mechanics for me are more than capable, they have experience, one has worked for OPM, one owns a performance shop, etc. We won't be a top notch professional team, but the prices in my head aren't even close to what they would charge. I have way too big of a guilty conscience to charge a lot for not enough. I just want to be fair, also the renter would know at least right now the car is just a fun basic car, it's not a front runner, it would suit someone looking to have fun or just starting out.

Thanks for the post though! It's all very helpful, keep it coming!

[gran racing]

Simon, I kinda like where you're going with this and there are ways to make it work. A huge part of what you need to do with anyone is manage expectations, be very open with the level of prep and support you're talking about, then put all of that into writing along with crash damage liablity, labor costs, and other CYA things. Andy is absolutely right from the perspective of doing this as a true rental business, but I do not see you taking this down that path.

and a few girls

THIS is your key to success!!! Bring hot girls to help work on the car, be friendly to renters, and poof, jackpot - there you have it.

[Knestis]

Short, easy math answer...

It got to the point where was charging $2500/seat for 1/4 of a the VIR 13 or similar race, and my seat was costing me substantially more than that. I was subsidizing others' racing, which worked OK when the economy was good and it was a sellers' market. Now? Not so much.

Now, to be fair, I was paying a real pro shop (RGM in my sig line) to do the preparation. The car was RIGHT but it cost actual money.

Kirk (who will be a renter for enduros this year)

[Simon T.]

Simon, I kinda like where you're going with this and there are ways to make it work. A huge part of what you need to do with anyone is manage expectations, be very open with the level of prep and support you're talking about, then put all of that into writing along with crash damage liablity, labor costs, and other CYA things. Andy is absolutely right from the perspective of doing this as a true rental business, but I do not see you taking this down that path.



THIS is your key to success!!! Bring hot girls to help work on the car, be friendly to renters, and poof, jackpot - there you have it.

I can bring girls. Nothing like making a renting driver feel awesome then sitting in a mid pack Neon with an umbrella girl standing over him.

Short, easy math answer...

It got to the point where was charging $2500/seat for 1/4 of a the VIR 13 or similar race, and my seat was costing me substantially more than that. I was subsidizing others' racing, which worked OK when the economy was good and it was a sellers' market. Now? Not so much.

Now, to be fair, I was paying a real pro shop (RGM in my sig line) to do the preparation. The car was RIGHT but it cost actual money.

Kirk (who will be a renter for enduros this year)

I've done so much adding up and trying to budget what my car will really cost to run. Like you said though your car is a much better prepared than mine, so my costs would be significantly less, I had $1000 or so in mind for the NASA 8 hour enduro and thought that may be too high for my car, I'm really not sure though and probably won't until I actually race it. The track day I did in it was more of a "what needs to be done" than a driving hard day.

Kirk (who will be a renter for enduros this year)

Are you saying you will be renting your car out still or looking for a car to rent? I know of a slow IT Neon with hot grid girls and windshield cleaners for rent later this year.

[lateapex911]

Simon, I kinda like where you're going with this and there are ways to make it work. A huge part of what you need to do with anyone is manage expectations, be very open with the level of prep and support you're talking about, then put all of that into writing along with crash damage liablity, labor costs, and other CYA things. Andy is absolutely right from the perspective of doing this as a true rental business, but I do not see you taking this down that path.



THIS is your key to success!!! Bring scantily clad, flirty hot girls to help work on the car, be friendly to renters, and poof, jackpot - there you have it.

Fixored. FlatOut should read this.
hahahaha

[gran racing]

Oh come on, that was so implied.

Playboy Rentals.....

[Cobrar05]

my rule of thumb. i am bringing the car and taking care that its properly prepared. i am hauling it to the race track. i am providing whatever personel to do a given event.
i am responsible that the car be properly teched and legal.

with that in mind it seems fair to ask the other driver(s) to pay for the actual usage expenses. the consumables(tires, brakes, fuel) and the entry fees. i am still the one taking on the costs of all the wear and tear on the equipment in the end.

this is assuming I am driving. doesnt that seem fair?

[Matt93SE]

Seems more than fair to me since all of the intangibles (engine, clutch, transmission, suspension wear) aren't factored in and are pretty significant on a front-running car.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I've done so much adding up and trying to budget what my car will really cost to run. Like you said though your car is a much better prepared than mine, so my costs would be significantly less, I had $1000 or so in mind for the NASA 8 hour enduro and thought that may be too high for my car, I'm really not sure though and probably won't until I actually race it. The track day I did in it was more of a "what needs to be done" than a driving hard day.

So show us the math here. Are you saying that you think your 'cost' will be $1000 for the NASA 8 hour?

Are you starting with new hubs, pads and rotors? How many tires are you going to go through? New tires or take offs? One spin and they are corded. Extras? Full fluids before AND after a race like that...

Slap your spreadshet up here and we will learn-ya the REAL costs....

And BTW, why are you considering renting? What is the end game?

[lateapex911]

I would ASSume (LOL) he's talking about charging 1000 per seat.
if you're using Hoosier, you're going to go through a set of fronts every 2.37 hours, 150 per tire x 6, plus mounting, hoping the rears go the whole way is $1000, I'd imagine, and just gas at $3.50 a gallon (if going cheap unleaded)
at an average speed of 75, (x 8 hrs), means 600 miles, /10MPG= 60 gallons, or a bit over $210, plus a set of pads ($100), an oil change ($40) so, right there you're up to an easy $1350, and that's not including hubs discs and the like (because I have no clue how much they cost$).
All up though it's an easy couple grand without thinking very hard.

[Simon T.]

So show us the math here. Are you saying that you think your 'cost' will be $1000 for the NASA 8 hour?

Are you starting with new hubs, pads and rotors? How many tires are you going to go through? New tires or take offs? One spin and they are corded. Extras? Full fluids before AND after a race like that...

Slap your spreadshet up here and we will learn-ya the REAL costs....

And BTW, why are you considering renting? What is the end game?

No, my cost would be over $1000 especially after the entry fee, food, gas to get there and home, etc.

Here is some pricing I came up with:

-Rotors: $20.00 each...BUT...these are for Autozone specials, I'll need to see if they are good enough with race pads. I used them at a track day and they had no issues at all but like I said I wasn't pushing hard at all.
-Pads: $100 for all four at my current "deal."
-I haven't calculated hubs yet, they're brand new right now.
-Tires: Free, a co-driver is providing tires for enduros instead of money. I will have two mounted sets and one set of rains. I get tire mounting done for free from a local shop.
-Oil and fluids before every event I calculated $50.00.
-Fuel is still unknown, see below. I just put $300.00 though as a starting point.
-My "crew" is getting paid with food and drinks (non alcohol until the race is over of course) so I just figured $75-100 to feed them all, that's probably way too high but I like to over estimate some things.
-Depending on the clutch condition I'd change it before an 8 hour enduro. More than likely I WOULD just to be safe. A new clutch is $200.00. Installation is free I can do it myself.
-I'd also like to do a timing belt change and check other belts before a long enduro. $100 would cover the parts and even a new water pump if needed. I can do all that myself.

I have misc. spare parts for the car, I guess if I really wanted to make a profit I'd have to add some of what I spend on spares into rental costs but...I'd like to get a complete spare engine and a spare transmission, neither of which I have but both can be had fairly cheap, there are loads of Neons in local junk yards.

The reason I am renting is to help cover enduro costs really. If I could make a few bucks doing it, sweet, but that's not really my goal here. If someone came with spare parts for the car or provided something else, I wouldn't have a problem, such as my friend providing tires, that's fine with me I'm not looking to make renting my car a career.

I would ASSume (LOL) he's talking about charging 1000 per seat.
if you're using Hoosier, you're going to go through a set of fronts every 2.37 hours, 150 per tire x 6, plus mounting, hoping the rears go the whole way is $1000, I'd imagine, and just gas at $3.50 a gallon (if going cheap unleaded)
at an average speed of 75, (x 8 hrs), means 600 miles, /10MPG= 60 gallons, or a bit over $210, plus a set of pads ($100), an oil change ($40) so, right there you're up to an easy $1350, and that's not including hubs discs and the like (because I have no clue how much they cost$).
All up though it's an easy couple grand without thinking very hard.

We will be using R1s, so I'm not sure of their distance. That's a scary thought about the Hoosiers though. We talked about rotating at a certain point since the rears probably won't be that worn out.

Fuel wise I run 93 unleaded in the car. I'll also have to see what type of fuel mileage I get here, in November I used about a tank and a half for two hours of track time, but had a clogged cat from hell so that may change the MPG.

[JLawton]

I think going out just to have fun with some buddies is a great idea. You need to know your cost but I wouldn't get bogged down with too much detail if just doing it for fun with friends. I think the key is getting in writting what the agreement is on damage. It's some great seat time and you will learn a lot. If you have a good co-driver and a data acquisition system and can be a HUGE benefit for a new driver to compare data from the same car

Personally, if I was going to do an 3 enduro with friends I would just charge them tires and get a damage agreement.

I enjoy the enduros because of the "team" atmosphere. Just DO IT!!

[Simon T.]

I think going out just to have fun with some buddies is a great idea. You need to know your cost but I wouldn't get bogged down with too much detail if just doing it for fun with friends. I think the key is getting in writting what the agreement is on damage. It's some great seat time and you will learn a lot. If you have a good co-driver and a data acquisition system and can be a HUGE benefit for a new driver to compare data from the same car

Personally, if I was going to do an 3 enduro with friends I would just charge them tires and get a damage agreement.

I enjoy the enduros because of the "team" atmosphere. Just DO IT!!

Yeah I think my one friend providing tires will be a huge help especially to me, he's a Skip Barber instructor with a lot of other race experience so that will be a big help.

I've sort of worked on a damage agreement but don't know how to do it properly. I listed out prices for things damaged with an overall price if the car is completely totaled in a wreck.

[lateapex911]

I think going out just to have fun with some buddies is a great idea. You need to know your cost but I wouldn't get bogged down with too much detail if just doing it for fun with friends. I think the key is getting in writting what the agreement is on damage. It's some great seat time and you will learn a lot. If you have a good co-driver and a data acquisition system and can be a HUGE benefit for a new driver to compare data from the same car

Personally, if I was going to do an 3 enduro with friends I would just charge them tires and get a damage agreement.

I enjoy the enduros because of the "team" atmosphere. Just DO IT!!

So, Jeff, when are we doing an enduro?