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Thread: One...more....time...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by almskidd View Post
    <snip>...Even though this type of cheating is a certainty...</snip>
    I agree, but we can't base the possibility of cheating as a reason to disallow a rule change. Isn't this the whole reason we have the current ECU rule? Too many people cheating, and no way to control it.

    I want the poly mount rule because on my car the engine moves around so much, chit breaks. If YOUR car, or YOU don't have a mount issue, then don't f'ing change them.

    I don't understand the "well I don't need them so no one else should have them" logic. How lame is that?
    Enjoy,
    Bill

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EV View Post
    I agree, but we can't base the possibility of cheating as a reason to disallow a rule change. Isn't this the whole reason we have the current ECU rule? Too many people cheating, and no way to control it.

    I want the poly mount rule because on my car the engine moves around so much, chit breaks. If YOUR car, or YOU don't have a mount issue, then don't f'ing change them.

    I don't understand the "well I don't need them so no one else should have them" logic. How lame is that?
    Agreed which is why I am a 100% behind the rule allowance. Plus I do need poly mounts.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffYoung View Post
    We woud nt consider a rule that allowed the motor to move. We can't write rules to stop cheating, and this allowance won't really change anything. If someone wants to move the motor with a disguised mount, they will do that.
    I didn't even think of the fact that someone could be doing that now with factory looking mounts. So that just makes that argument even more invalid.
    Last edited by almskidd; 01-11-2011 at 11:58 AM.

  3. #23
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    One MAJOR aspect of rule writing is to NOT trip up on the "It will be easy to cheat that up" caveat.
    Rules do not enforce. People enforce. Or not. Their choice.
    In this case, enforcement is easy. Protest mount. Remove mount. Purchase new stock mount from manufacturer. measure. Soup.

    Yes, it's a bit more hassle than that, but.....if I walked the paddock now, I bet I'd find 10% of the cars have illegal mounts. And I don't see many protests. Which tells you something.

    Here are the sides of the debate, as far as I can discern them:

    Con: Rules currently allow control of engine location via stayrods. Some ITAC members feel this includes chains (that operate under tension). So we don't need the rules creep.
    Counterpoint: Stayrods are allowed in ONE place. The engine can still move around quite a bit. Further, stayrods are often the more difficult/expensive method. Finding the location on the chassis and engine that will handle the loads isn't always easy. Alternate mounts are merely another way to get to the same destination.

    Con: Mounts represent a performance advantage to FWD cars: The stayrod method doesn't work on fwd cars as well because it doesn't lock down the entire drivetrain. Mounts will do this more effectively, giving the FWD cars a leg up on the RWD cars. (who can not lock down the entire drivetrain with engine mounts)
    Counterpoint: If that's the case, Con # 1 (Stayrods are effective and other options are not needed) isn't true. Further the rule was written with the purpose of allowing engine location control. At the time, FWD cars were not as common, and alternate mounts were rare. As such, the rule was RWD centric, and RWD cars have been getting the greater potential advantage for years, while the rule didn't suit the FWD cars as well. Adding mounts to the existing allowance to control engine location merely evens things up a bit. Some will say the FWD cars gain additional advantage because the ENTIRE drivetrain is locked down as the trans is also the final drive, but that's largely irrelevant as RWD cars have numerous advantages with IRS and suspension allowances.

    Con: Rules creep, the members want stability:

    Counterpoint. Red herrring. It's not rules creep, the allowance already exists. If the rule says you can, then the rule should allow you do do what it purports to allow. As for the members, they have spoken that this allowance is not a threat to their desire for stability.

    Con: If you don't like the rules, go race someplace else:
    Counterpoint: I'm afraid the rules simply don't make sense. Why allow something, but then place limitations to NOT allow it? And I'm also afraid people WILL and DO go someplace else to race. Someplace where this aspect is handled with common sense....and it isn't always someplace else within the SCCA.
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
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  4. #24
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    Did I call anybody a whiner Jake?

    Every year some body wants a new rule that takes IT closer to production. Some of the IT rules now allow car to be built that are closer to the production cars of a few years ago just as the production guys are asking for rules changes that move prod cars closer to GT every year.

    What happen to IT being a budget entry level or a place for aged out SS cars? What about the younger drivers we are trying to entice into the sport? Many are just getting started in life and do not have big budgets. Now instead of being able to buy an older SS car or one of the more popular street cars, add a cage, seat, harness, and fire extinguisher then still have a chance at being competitive they have to build a RACECAR, or get bitched at for being a rolling chicane. Yea, that is going to do a lot to attract new drivers.

    Just for the record my current wreck does not have a rubber or poly mount on the engine or transmission. And still won't when it gets out of the body shop. SOWDIV ITE rules allow it.

    The other Supra on the pad under going an ITS build will have stock ECU and mounts. Perhaps I should just give up on IT and skip straight to a GT-2 build on the other Supra.

    Jake you as well as anyone should know that racing ain't cheap. A rookie mistake by another driver just cost me $2500 in body work. I can either whine about it or get it fixed and move on. Parts wear out and break, belts expire, and unpopular safety upgrades are mandated. At the end of this year I will have to buy a new helmet and HANS or quit driving. We all know this and we all have to live with it. We also have to keep up with the maintenance on our cars. That means buying parts.

    Here is my suggestion. If you all want to make IT more of a RACECAR class make a petition to have the class philosophy changed to allow the rule changes you want.
    As a refresher:
    "Improved Touring classes are intended to provide the membership with
    the opportunity to compete in low cost cars with limited modifications,
    suitable for racing competition. To that end, cars will be models, as
    offered for sale in the United States. They will be prepared to manufacturer’s
    specifications except for modifications permitted by these rules."

    If anybody cares I will be at the convention. Look me up and cuss me in person.
    Jerry

    Lone Star Regional Executive
    Lone Star Tech Chief.

  5. #25
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    I am still of the opinion that the problem this tries to solve can be solved now within the rules, is easier to do than people want to believe, and that 95% of the proponents have not even tried.

    However it won't be the end of the world if it happens. Depending on the wording of any new allowance I plan to use it to shed 5-10 more pounds off the nose of my car.
    Chris Schaafsma
    Golf 2 HProd

    AMT Racing Engines - DIYAutoTune.com

  6. #26
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    My engine breaks lifters. When it does, my engine is grenaded and really, nothing of value remains. I have gone so far as to tear the engine down after every race to inspect and replace parts as needed. This is time consuming and expensive. I've lost six engines due to this type of failure. (The preceding is 100% true. Now comes the fun part...) Therefore, I should be allowed to convert to a solid lifter with the same dimensions as the hydraulic one. This would be a cost savings for me, and a HUGE safety item as I will not oil down the track causing a HUGE accident. Since everything is the same as stock, there is no performance advantage. The engine rule should be changed to allow this change. If the rule is not changed, then SCCA is being unreasonable to my requests, and I think I'll just take my business elsewhere. Anyone who disagrees is being unreasonable and doesn't think clearly............I'm just sayin'

    Change the engine lifter to front hubs on a lot of FWD cars and you can generate a similar arguement.

  7. #27
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    I'll bet that my Benz has destroyed more motor mounts (and radiators) than any ten other brands.....
    But the point is, Jake sent a letter. The ITAC and CRB already have the poll. Let them rule on the new letter.
    Move to a new topic.

  8. #28
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    I have no dog in the IT fight, but here's my opinion on safety and factory engine mounts...
    Here's what my 93 Maxima (which could run in ITE if I so chose) did to THREE crossmembers in 20k miles of hard driving with stock- soft- engine mounts:
    http://blehmco.com/pics/car/drivetra...r/IM000109.JPG

    The stock engine mounts allowed the engine to move about 2" when I shifted and the engine would jumpt and hit the edge of the mount, causing a shock to propagate through the crossmember. do that a few thousand times and the xmember fatigued and snapped. I was fortunate that I felt this as soon as it snapped and chose to not enter the highway onramp I was about to turn on. I limped the car home and was able to repair the car before my engine hit the pavement and destroyed another oil pan.
    I installed some window-welded engine mounts and another xmember and didn't have another problem with it. (as you can see in the photos in that folder, I also beefed up another xmember with 1/8" steel plate and installed it later..)

    Again I have no dog in this IT fight so my $0.02 is only worth 1/2 that, but there's a real safety issue to look at. it would sure suck for a car with similar mounts like a Sentra or Altima to snap an Xmember and drop their engine onto the track at 100mph.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossaidis View Post
    I did appreciate the disclaimer and approach, wasn't trying to be testy. Seriously. If I was, I would be including him with the like of some others on forum that call us whiners and like. I meant what I said, it takes courage to say what Jerry said on this forum.

    Jerry, I meant no offense, it was 6:32 am in morning, please forgive me if I came off as "testy" as that was not my intent. I do want to ask you to expand on your view point if it's anything other than the "if you want to do more to your car, then upgrade to prod" viewpoint.

    My comment was just a generalization and not directed at you. You usually make it VERY clear when you're ripping into someone!!
    Jeff L

    ITA Miata



    2010 NARRC Champion

    2007 NERRC Championship, 2nd place
    2008 NARRC Championship, 2nd place
    2009 NARRC Championship, 2nd place

  10. #30
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    i think i will write another letter regarding H&NR.

    only this time i will include ACCUS.

    http://www.accusfia.us/
    1985 CRX Si competed in Solo II: AS, CS, DS, GS
    1986 CRX Si competed in: SCCA Solo II CSP, SCCA ITA, SCCA ITB, NASA H5
    1988 CRX Si competed in ITA & STL

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhooten View Post
    Did I call anybody a whiner Jake?
    Not directly, but the point is that just saying "Go away if you don't like it"....when the vast majority of respondents to a CRB query were very much for it, is inappropriate. it's indicative of an attitude that's not too tolerant, and that's gotten the SCCA a bad name. Listen, I don't give two cents about engine mounts..this aint about MY car...it's about a much bigger issue.

    Every year some body wants a new rule that takes IT closer to production. Some of the IT rules now allow car to be built that are closer to the production cars of a few years ago just as the production guys are asking for rules changes that move prod cars closer to GT every year.
    Yes, and no. When I was on the ITAC, I rejected dozens of rules asking for things like lexan windows, carbon hoods, wings, bigger brakes, and so on. None of them had any real upside and all of them would cost every competitor time and money to keep up with the Jones'.

    This is NOT a new ground breaking allowance. The forefathers wanted to allow engine movement controls. This is merely bringing an old rule in line with current times. Allowing window weld moves us not 1 nanometer closer to Prod, and saying so is just not accurate.

    What happen to IT being a budget entry level or a place for aged out SS cars? What about the younger drivers we are trying to entice into the sport? Many are just getting started in life and do not have big budgets. Now instead of being able to buy an older SS car or one of the more popular street cars, add a cage, seat, harness, and fire extinguisher then still have a chance at being competitive they have to build a RACECAR, or get bitched at for being a rolling chicane. Yea, that is going to do a lot to attract new drivers.
    Well, I don't travel in your circles. I don't hear much bitching about slow cars/drivers. Unless they drive badly. Regardless, that really has zero, zilch nada to do with this, unless you're saying that an allowance of engine mounts will cost everyone $$. Or conversly that the cars lacking them will be backmarkers. It will actually save some people significant money. It's much cheaper and easier to buy some mounts (or spooge goo in your on the car stock mounts) and jack the car up, slip them in than it is to get rods, brackets, spherical bearings, and a welder and build a stayrod. Certainly it's more 'newbie friendly', and more in keeping with the "bolt on" nature of the class.

    Jake you as well as anyone should know that racing ain't cheap. A rookie mistake by another driver just cost me $2500 in body work.
    .....been to frame machine myself for a guy who decided to try braking at the .5 mark instead of the 200 mark and T boned my car. My solution to that is to instruct whenever possible.
    I can either whine about it or get it fixed and move on. Parts wear out and break, .....t. We also have to keep up with the maintenance on our cars. That means buying parts.
    And my solution to THAT is to look at the rules with a little common sense and see how they can be made friendlier. Jerry, there are lots of reasons to allow engine mounts, and only one of them is for possible economic benefit to a certain subset of drivers. IF it provided an unfair advantage to some, then it would be a non starter. It might make it easier for some, cheaper for others, or a non issue with the rest. It WILL make it easier for non SCCA racer to race with us legally, as most other sanctioning bodies that have IT-like classes allow mounts,

    Here is my suggestion. If you all want to make IT more of a RACECAR class make a petition to have the class philosophy changed to allow the rule changes you want.
    As a refresher:
    "Improved Touring classes are intended to provide the membership with
    the opportunity to compete in low cost cars with limited modifications,
    suitable for racing competition. To that end, cars will be models, as
    offered for sale in the United States. They will be prepared to manufacturer’s
    specifications except for modifications permitted by these rules."

    If anybody cares I will be at the convention. Look me up and cuss me in person.
    yes, I know the opening mantra. And I ask you, is it easier for a newbie to spooge a little window weld into a stock mount or to fabricate a stayrod while knowing the best location for it that wont cause further damage?

    See, to my eye, this allowance IS the the poster child for a 'limited modification suitable for racing competition"
    Last edited by lateapex911; 01-11-2011 at 04:41 PM.
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  12. #32
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    But don't play this dishonest game of "safety and costs"

    Not exactly sure about what is dishonest about trying to save money for all racers, Greg?

  13. #33
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    I just putting this out there but if anyone checks out my motor mounts at the track this year they will find that they are new stock/OEM type rubber ones with the voids filled with polyurethane.
    1988 ITA Scriocco 16V #80
    MCSCC member since 1988

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbbski View Post
    I just putting this out there but if anyone checks out my motor mounts at the track this year they will find that they are new stock/OEM type rubber ones with the voids filled with polyurethane.
    and that fits whose definition of legal besides your own?
    Rob Breault
    BMW 328is #36
    2008 Driving Impressions Pro-ITA Champion
    2008 NARRC DP Champion
    2009 NARRC ITR Champion
    2009 Team DI Pro-ITR Champion

  15. #35
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    Greg x2

    Chris x2

    I've been relatively silent on the subject but as the outgoing King of Anti-Creep even I think an engine mount rule consistent with what's been talked about here would be totally fine. Completely consistent with other allowed LIMITED modifications within the intent statement, and already allowed by other more complex means.

    And to be clear, I've already completely locked the engine in place with one 3" long stayrod, coaxial to the front engine mount. I spent the money for custom fabrication but I don't think it's reasonable to ride that high horse and force an entire category of drivers to do the same thing.

    K

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbbski View Post
    I just putting this out there but if anyone checks out my motor mounts at the track this year they will find that they are new stock/OEM type rubber ones with the voids filled with polyurethane.
    You knowingly cheat. You think it's OK for anyone to simply ignore the rules they don't like. It's not even fun to beat people like you.

    I'll put up a $20 to contribute to protesting your car if anyone you race against is willing to write the paper. PM me if you're out there someone...

    K

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom91ita View Post
    i think i will write another letter regarding H&NR.

    only this time i will include ACCUS.

    http://www.accusfia.us/
    Isn't the President and CEO of SCCA also a VP of ACCUS?????????
    Bill Stevens - Mbr # 103106
    BnS Racing www.bnsracing.net
    92 ITA Saturn
    83 ITB Shelby Dodge Charger
    Sponsors - Race-Keeper Data/Video Aquisition Systems www.race-keeper.com
    Simpson Performance Products - simpsonraceproducts.com

  18. #38
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    Bill,

    not sure about the exact connection but it was something like that.

    besides, i think it might be a broader appeal if we can communicate that there is a reason for them to collectively accept a performance based standard as opposed to a design based standard.
    1985 CRX Si competed in Solo II: AS, CS, DS, GS
    1986 CRX Si competed in: SCCA Solo II CSP, SCCA ITA, SCCA ITB, NASA H5
    1988 CRX Si competed in ITA & STL

  19. #39
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    I'm surprised no one has mentioned the "warts and all" aspect of picking your car for IT. How is it that this saying applies to other discussions, but when it comes to motor mounts poorly suited/fragile for racing application that it's ok to dispense with this wart?

    Personally I was opposed to the wording of the previous proposal. I felt there were too many vagaries and loopholes that could be exploited to some kind of advantage, like stated above, such as relocating the engine or modifying the kinematics of the mount system.

    If it's simply a material substitution allowance, stock mounting locations and geometry must be maintained, however this is worded, then I'm in support.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Bro View Post
    and that fits whose definition of legal besides your own?

    I wrote that just to see what reaction I would get. I do have two mounts so modified but they are not installed. If the rule being dicussed here is changed to make these legal then I will.
    The allowance, if it happend, to legally install non OEM style motor mounts using non OEM materials it stand to reason that adding non OEM materials to OEM type mounts can be too. Or am I out in right field here?
    1988 ITA Scriocco 16V #80
    MCSCC member since 1988

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