January Fastrack

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, you know the answer to that and you know my thoughts on this.

Actually, I don't know the answer. I DO know your position, but you just introduced new evidence into the "ITB 30% trial" as it relates to the majority.

If (obviously), the majority of the ITAC thinks that cars classed in ITB that have multi-valve architecture produce 30% as a rule, I would think someone would be able to rattle off a pile of them for us. Since the Alfas and Fiats are non-existant (and if they do exsist, they would be moot data due to previous HP measuring standards) then these are the remaining DOHC cars in ITB:

Geo Prism/Geo Storm
Mazda 626
Mazda Protege ES
Nissan Sentra
Saab 900
Suzuki Swift
Toyoyta FX-16
Toyota MR2
Golf 2.0

Wow. Some real overdogs there.

Time for me to write a letter instead of blathering here.

[JeffYoung]

That is appreciated. A letter would be appreciated.

Is the version of the Honda Civic that Scott G. and Jeff Underwood built 4-valve? For that one there is a lot of information (many thanks to Scott on that). For that car I would say there is documentation available, but I'm not as up on Honda engines as I should be and don't even know if it is 8 valve or 16.

[Andy Bettencourt]

That is appreciated. A letter would be appreciated.

Is the version of the Honda Civic that Scott G. and Jeff Underwood built 4-valve? For that one there is a lot of information (many thanks to Scott on that). For that car I would say there is documentation available, but I'm not as up on Honda engines as I should be and don't even know if it is 8 valve or 16.

No DOHC Honduhs in ITB.

[Chip42]

Add isuzu stylus XS to that list (4dr version of Geo Storm GSi). it's shown as "OHC" in the ITCS.

many if not all of the Alfas and Fiats are DOHC 2valve motors, too.

but the point remains - these aren't 30% gainers (maybe, MAYBE the swift) most are more likely ~20%. they were "optimized" from the OEM more so than most of the older tech cars. So if anything, the 30% is in the WRONG direction from the nominal gainer.
ITB was a great ARRC race between 4 valve SOHC 1.5L and 3 valve SOHC 2.0L hondas. SOMETHING is being done right, if selectively.

[JeffYoung]

I'm confused by the above -- sorry guys.

Andy says no 4 valve Hondas in ITB, Chip suggests Underwood and Ruck's cars are? Which is it?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'm confused by the above -- sorry guys.

Andy says no 4 valve Hondas in ITB, Chip suggests Underwood and Ruck's cars are? Which is it?

I said no DOHC. I guess we need to slice it up even more for this new 'rule'. . Maybe anything other than 2V is multi-valve in the 'rule'.

IIRC the guideline that was being clung to when saying the MR2 should be 30% was "16V", not 'multivalve' if you want to get techincal.

Isn't Scott's Honda a 12V?

[JeffYoung]

As I recall the discussion it focused on valves per cylinder. I may be wrong. I get lost in some of the lengthy discussions about the smaller Honda/Nissan/Toyota motors. There are people on the committee with a lot more knowledge about them than me.

[Chip42]

tKR, underwood etc.. civics are 16v. older ones are 2/3 depending (have to check ITCS and don't have the time). they are all SOHC. I know the 92-95 Civic DX is classed at >25%

Accord LXi/SEi, 2L Golf 3, many others are 12v SOHC

the DOHC list andy provided are all 16v. a lot of the DOHC Italian stuff is 8v.

ITCS should thus list valves/cyl as well as/ instead of cam type and count?

the point remains that as a blanket rule, the 16v at >25% concept fails to be acurate. there are cases where it may be true (some SOHC 16v hondas for sure) but more where it is not (nissan GA16DE, toyoter 4AGE, etc...) and then there are the isuzu twins at different weights neither of which match process (way under 25% for the storm). it's a cluster.

[Andy Bettencourt]

So the net result is that an 'architecture rule' is being based on a small generation of overacheiving 12V Hondas yet it is applied to anything 'multivalve', regardless of MFG, in JUST ITB.

Write your well-founded letters now please. A policy change should result in the MR2 issue going away.