SCCA HELMET UPDATE and other news!!!!

[downingracing]

I've never run with NASA and i don't think I will run again with SCCA in the future if this stands. Ove the years, i started racing in 1988, I have done 90% of my racing with MCSCC and I will stay there for now. Also I can attend all of their board meetings if I choose and vote on changes like this in person. I don't think MCSCC will ever make a Hans type device manditory, not if I can help it!

SCCA does not listen to the membership. It's run to much like a business and less like a "club".

Fine line between listening to your members and listening to lawyers ... It is a fine line and one that I feel deserves additional consideration. Regardless, I feel the scca is still the best game in town for road race (hands down!).

[gran racing]

I'm beyond annoyed with this ruling but don't entirely blame it on SCCA. I do think there are better restraint systems out there but it's about law suits and cover your ass. If (when) there's a death and family / attorney's feel ($$$$) that SCCA should have mandated a HNR regulation yet they didn't....sucks, but it's up to a jury. The SFI badge is the easy way out, and it would take balls for SCCA to do something different. The club is already a slow moving ship; trying to do this would be pretty huge. A part of me says it's still possible.

Another challenge is where to draw the line and how to define "lawsuit protected" versus "actual driver protection". I laugh at some of these almighty SFI devices worn by guys with left side window nets (yes, plural), drink bottles, radio communication set, and a guide on "how to remove the belts exercise". Taking the lawsuit protected option is easy. For now, that is.

[Simon T.]

Is everyone really that upset if SCCA mandates the use of a H&N system? I haven't read one single good argument in here to WHY they should not mandate it.

It's cheap insurance.

I could see some worried about it being harder to get out of the car and what not but I'm sure you can figure out a plan in case you're upside down and on fire and need to get out.

Also how does a racing suit affect your heart?

[Greg Amy]

It's cheap insurance.

So is "not racing"; in fact, it's a lot cheaper and a lot safer.

Simon, it's personal risk v reward. Plus, calling these devices "cheap" is a bit of an understatement; I remember someone (on this board?) posting a list of all the "safety equipment" someone has to buy just in order to rent a car to go to a school, and it's pretty staggering (go ahead, price it out).

Secondarily, that whole "SFI thing" upsets a lot of people in that they have HANS-mandated requirements for certification, and one has to send money to the SFI to get their product "certified" (basically, they're paying "protection money" to an org that's being run by the major players in the industry.)

At some point you have to recognize that racing is inherently dangerous, and somewhere along the way on the risk v reward curve it's really beginning to flatten out to the point of offering no return. Toss in there a lot of politics and having better-performing options excluded, and it becomes a touchy subject.

GA

[Cobrar05]

i'll ask again, what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option?

I have a grand am compliant car. fire suppression, right side net, head restraint seat, hutchens hybrid.

[gran racing]

I haven't read one single good argument in here to WHY they should not mandate it.

Yet another cost and barrier to entry to some. I would have fallen into that catagory back when I started. Even now, it's gonna hurt next year if the SFI deal remains. Weren't you just recently looking for hand-me-down race belts? (And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that btw.)

what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option?

That stupid fire bottle that rests on the floor of my passenger footwell for one.

Why not mandate a full fire supression system? Or lets increase the build standards on cages? But for now that's not the discussion.

[Simon T.]

i'll ask again, what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option?

I have a grand am compliant car. fire suppression, right side net, head restraint seat, hutchens hybrid.

All of it. A roll bar, seat, and harness is fine for me. lol

[raffaelli]

I did get a returb call from defender. Voice mail saya that there is an adminstrative thing which has caused its removal from the sfi site. It is certfied.


No return email from sfi yet.

SFI sent me an email which says "Defender chose not to renew certification at this time, but they can sell previously certified existing inventory".

[Greg Amy]

I have a grand am compliant car. fire suppression, right side net, head restraint seat, hutchens hybrid.

I'm sure you're probably the safest m'fr on the planet...I'm certain you think you are...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Just sayin'.

GA

[Greg Amy]

'Defender wouldn't pay us our protection money that we require in order to give them the stickers to slap on each of the units you buy, which of course don't affect the suitability or safety of the unit. But then, without that sticker, you can't buy one for SCCA competition next year. Call HANS -- or I can transfer you directly over if you'd like...'

Fixed.

[erlrich]

i'll ask again, what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option?

Well, let's start with a SFI-compliant H&N restraint...

[RacerBill]

SFI sent me an email which says "Defender chose not to renew certification at this time, but they can sell previously certified existing inventory".

Just what does 'previously certified existing inventory' mean? Sounds like it the inventory that has the SFI sticker on it that Defender already paid for. My understanding of how that works from talking to a manufacturer of safety gear is that they (the manufacturer) pays SFI 1) a fee to use the SFI name (become a participating manufacturer), and 2) another fee for each SFI label they put onto their products. And, of course, we know that SFI does not really certify anything - they just write the standards and the manufacturers certify that their products meet or exceed those specifications. Pretty sweet deal, considering that they don't even spend any money developing some of the standards.

Does anyone know if the SFI is a profit or non-profit corporation, and what are the compensation packages of the officers, owners, etc.?

[Knestis]

i'll ask again, what required safety equipment would you pass on if it was all your option? ...

Running the risk of starting to care about the politics of this again - and with respect - you're missing the point.

I wouldn't pass on anything and have, in fact, regularly exceeded the minimum mandates for safety equipment since the very first time I put on Nomex in 1986.

For example, our old IMSA car required that the window net be attached to the door, and that the door be pinned. I had no confidence that the door would stay shut in a rollover - even with the pin - so I wore arm restraints. I've always had a fire system in my cars, when a bottle would have done it. I had a custom-made 4-layer suit back when only ONE layer was required. I ignore guidance re: where to put the nozzles (don't care if the engine burns up) based on my experience work in the safety business. Etc. Etc. Etc.

What I WOULD do is make the best decision for me, in my circumstances, with my car, on the courses I race, in order to accomplish my more-than-minimum standards - irrespective of what SFI thinks is the right answer. I know too much about how that organization works to believe that simply following their tags around will make me as safe as possible.

K

[Knestis]

SFI sent me an email which says "Defender chose not to renew certification at this time, but they can sell previously certified existing inventory".

Well that's interesting, isn't it...? You all think the new units are inherently less safe than the ones with the stickers? Hmm...

K

EDIT - Bill's understanding and description is spot on. SFI is a registered non-profit.

[erlrich]

Does anyone know if the SFI is a profit or non-profit corporation, and what are the compensation packages of the officers, owners, etc.?

SFI is a 501(c)(6) corporation. For the last year reported ('09) it had total revenue of ~$1.34 million, of which $928k was from "Sales of inventory" (labels?), $150k was from "Licensing fees", and $255k was from "Laboratory testing fees". Its only officer who earns anything worth mentioning is Arnold Kuhns, who earned ~$233k in '09. Its major expenses were salaries & payroll expeses (~$627k, not counting Kuhn's salary), overhead (~$233k), travel & conferences (~$70k), and insurance ($39k). Their research & development expense for that year was ~$25k.

[Robert Zecca]

Guys.....I read this thread and all the individual opinions in which everyone is entitled to have. I opted not to sell Defender from day one and now I understand they are not presently compliant? I know Hans works......and have saved many lives. Please keep me in mind when and if you do buy a Hans. I do not set the rules.....SCCA does....all I try to do is be honest with you and do my best to get you safe and proper equipment and a good price.

I know the board is working on some ProIT stuff and it looks like we are on again next year with ARCA at NJMP. The deal was just inked.

I hope all else is well with everyone.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

[Russ Myers]

Show me the empierical data that shows that it has actually saved a life. I need to see numbers. Getting out of a crashed car and saying that this thing saved my life is nonsense. Thats like saying if I hadn't studied, I wouldn't have passed that test. How do you know??? If this is the case, then how did I survive my wreck at Road Atlanta in an SSC Fiesta,that only had a roll BAR( no cage), stock factory seat, with no attachment to said bar, and window net attached to the doors window frame? And I gave that armco a mighty wollop.

Russ

[Simon T.]

Show me the empierical data that shows that it has actually saved a life. I need to see numbers. Getting out of a crashed car and saying that this thing saved my life is nonsense. Thats like saying if I hadn't studied, I wouldn't have passed that test. How do you know??? If this is the case, then how did I survive my wreck at Road Atlanta in an SSC Fiesta,that only had a roll BAR( no cage), stock factory seat, with no attachment to said bar, and window net attached to the doors window frame? And I gave that armco a mighty wollop.

Russ

Really? Come on now.

Your wreck could of gone many different ways. LUCK is what I think of it. Have you seen on board wrecks with a driver not wearing a H&N? Some are bad, some aren't. It's that little tiny angle and other variables that can make a driver tell their luck story or tell us they recommend a HANS from a hospital bed.

[Cobrar05]

I'm sure you're probably the safest m'fr on the planet...I'm certain you think you are...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Just sayin'.

GA

ok...thats not the spirit with which i am participating in this conversation. personally, i dont understand the blow back on this subject. i mix with many that participate in other groups and never hear this complaint. only here.

its ok with me if you want to race in shorts and a tshirt. really. i dont care unless it significantly increases my entry fee or my license fee.

i was just curious why you felt this way. i'll just read from here out on this subject.

[Raceman77]

Well it get frustrating reading some of these post. I feel it is all about how much saftey equipment you want. SCCA tells us you need this or you dont race. I started racing 2 years ago. I decided that I would use the HANS to protect myself the best I thought I could. My first season I totaled my car. I hit 3 of the 4 corners on the car. It was an original front end impact with someone elses front. He was stop and i was pushed up into him with no where to go. I feel with out the HANS or any other head and neck device I would not have walked away from the car easily. I would not have woken up the next morning with out any neck pain. Yes it was a big purchase but in the end I need to wake up Monday morning to get to my office to run the show. As far as i am concerned is they work.

IT7 81
JB