STx in DI Pro IT

[benspeed]

I love to see Greg and Andy mix it up - extreme entertainment value.

Chris - total threadjack....but I will say this - I'd run the pro course at LRP but I sure want to see how it goes before I put my car out there. LRP is the one track I always worry about getting wrecked at and I wonder if the pro course creates more contact or not.

[thedude12]

Greg I am assuming you like the alternate course, however most people who have driven it feel it does not work well with there cars. It was an after thought and the regular track is much better. If you want to run the alternate course make friends with someone at the limerock club and use it then. Or convince a drivers school to run it and mess around with it that way.

[StephF]

Spice it up, we need more than the Missionary Position at Lime Rock. If Pro-IT runs the "pro" course, I'll probably rent a car to drive it.

GA

That's sig line material right there!

[lateapex911]

I love to see Greg and Andy mix it up - extreme entertainment value.

Chris - total threadjack....but I will say this - I'd run the pro course at LRP but I sure want to see how it goes before I put my car out there. LRP is the one track I always worry about getting wrecked at and I wonder if the pro course creates more contact or not.

It becomes a start stop course. Get through the esses, brake hard. (but maybe not enough of a straight for passing?) thread the chicanery, and then drag race to west bend. Rinse, repeat.
Classic course has some real subtlety to it, and carrying speeds through the corners is paramount. A major aspect of that would go away, and as Andy mentioned, the downhill, now one of the more demanding corners in club racing would be an easy flat no brainer.

When we run the double chicane arrangement at NHMS, I stay away. Tried it, hate it. It takes the signature corner (NASCAR 1 and 2) away from the track. In my eyes, the west bend chicane would do exactly the same thing to Lime Rock.

[anthony1k]

Contrary to what it appears, this thread is still on topic: change. Good or bad?

STx in Pro IT, good or bad. Opinions seem to be running against the idea. I like the series and the long race format and I would love to be able to run my STU. But if the powers that be decide otherwise I'm fine with it. Having said that, I think it it will be a mistake not to selectively open the door to new paying customers. STU and STL cars will fit nicely in this series. Think STx as IT 2.0. Yes, STL's and especially STU's have the potential for big HP but, with the exception of a handful of cars at the runoffs, we have not seen that yet. And yes, most races this year were well subscribed but having even more cars next year is a good thing in my opinion.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I disagree Anthony. The last thing the series needs is a couple cars that handle great in a straight line out there potentially getting in the way of the fast ITR/ITS/ITA guys. The guys that the series is built around.

Now if there was 10 of them, we could boot SM!

[Matt93SE]

Andy, RE Lime Rock pro course... Just like I tell my wife when I try to get her to do something other than missionary.. "C'mon- try something new! Just give it a shot- you just might find out you like it!"


okay, back to the topic..
Referring to post #3, I don't understand how an STU car is slower than an IT car in the corners. At least not how a well-prepped STU car would be slower anyway..

STU = ITS + power + aero + tire (from ITS) + suspension + brakes - weight - that damn washer bottle
ITR has bigger engines and more power, but they also have more weight and only 1/2" more rim width allowed. given the aero and suspension options available in STU, that should negate the 1/2" of wheel width.


so I'm curious as to how anyone would come to the conclusion that properly built STU is slower than ITS or ITR in the corners...

[lateapex911]

Andy, RE Lime Rock pro course... Just like I tell my wife when I try to get her to do something other than missionary.. "C'mon- try something new! Just give it a shot- you just might find out you like it!"

Sorry to hear that.....caveat emptor and all that lol...

okay, back to the topic..
Referring to post #3, I don't understand how an STU car is slower than an IT car in the corners. At least not how a well-prepped STU car would be slower anyway..


STU = ITS + power + aero + tire (from ITS) + suspension + brakes - weight - that damn washer bottle
ITR has bigger engines and more power, but they also have more weight and only 1/2" more rim width allowed. given the aero and suspension options available in STU, that should negate the 1/2" of wheel width.


so I'm curious as to how anyone would come to the conclusion that properly built STU is slower than ITS or ITR in the corners...

Same way a ITS Mazda RX-7 holds up the ITB race leaders. No excuse for it in anyone but a novice, and even then, they should know to get out of the way, yet we see it frequently.

And, at this point, most STL and STU cars are double dippers or, at best, underdeveloped ST cars. I bet you can count on one hand the number of full tilt boogie STU and STL cars ...in the country....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy, RE Lime Rock pro course... Just like I tell my wife when I try to get her to do something other than missionary.. "C'mon- try something new! Just give it a shot- you just might find out you like it!"


okay, back to the topic..
Referring to post #3, I don't understand how an STU car is slower than an IT car in the corners. At least not how a well-prepped STU car would be slower anyway..

STU = ITS + power + aero + tire (from ITS) + suspension + brakes - weight - that damn washer bottle
ITR has bigger engines and more power, but they also have more weight and only 1/2" more rim width allowed. given the aero and suspension options available in STU, that should negate the 1/2" of wheel width.


so I'm curious as to how anyone would come to the conclusion that properly built STU is slower than ITS or ITR in the corners...

The problem is that there is no guarantee that there WILL be a properly built and driven STU/STL car there. Since there are so few of them and the prep of many of what I have seen is not at the level of the front row of the Runoffs (see Greg's video from RA), what you want to avoid is cars that will interfear with the premier cars the series was designed for. THAT will kill more entries than you could add IMHO.

What I DO see working is what happened at LRP last year. A Pro IT AND a restricted regional - both during the National weekend. Those two added run groups got the event into the black. It was an awesome weekend. Lobby for some more restricted regionals with that group included. One-off events yes, not a 'Pro' series built around other classes.

[Greg Amy]

...so I'm curious as to how anyone would come to the conclusion that properly built STU is slower than ITS or ITR in the corners...

Esepcially since Andy has declared, simultaneously, that:

- The ITS Integra GS-R is competitive in ITS, and;
- The STL Integra GS-R will walk the field in STL.

Ergo, one can only conclude using that logic that an STL Integra - a car that should be well slower than a poorly-built STU car - should be leagues ahead of the ITS field...

Of course, if we are to follow the logic subsequent to that, said poorly-built STL (nee ITS) Integra GS-R would actually be a double-dipper and thus be legal for ITS and thus....legal to run Pro-IT in ITS. And, thus, irrelevant vis-a-vis whether it's there "holding up" the "premier cars" as an ITS or STL car...

And is the issue:
- The class the cars' in (e.g., the stickers on the side);
- The level of prep (e.g. Ok if it's a full prep, not Ok if it's half-arse);
- The hang-up of "the premier class" in general, regardless of class, sportsmanship, and/or prep; or actually
- The nutbag behind the wheel and his attitudes about general racing sportsmanship, regardless of class and prep?

Just askin'.

Damn, I hate topic drift...

P.S. Don't care either way, just wondering about the logic behind this. I didn't race any Pro IT races in '10 so I don't really "have a dog in this fight"...

[Andy Bettencourt]

The concept is simple. Adding STU/STL for a couple of cars doesn't seem like it's worth the headache it could cause. I'd feel the same way about AS, FP, EP, etc.

Just sayin'.

[Greg Amy]

Adding STU/STL for a couple of cars doesn't seem like it's worth the headache it could cause.

I did read it. Very closely.

But I also agree with the above statement: if the Pro-IT race group does not need the numbers, and the numbers that STU/STL would provide if included are small, then it's not worth adding them.

GA

[Matt93SE]

Let's also pretend to think 5 years out. there are only a handfull of properly built STU cars out right now, but what do you think it's going to happen in 2-3-5 years?

... Realize I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I'm trying to present all options so people make the most informed/best choice for the long term, not just for today. If that means to table the idea and come back in a couple years if/when STU gets going, then that should be one option to discuss.

OTOH, how do you think the STU guy feels while trying to pass that "slow" ITS car on the straight and he's 'protecting his line'? By the time the ITS car got to the corner, the STU car would have already been out of the way since it would have gotten there a sec earlier.

Now.... looking at some recent race results, the STU cars at ARRC were just as fast as the ITR and ITS cars. It appears at least a couple of them were double-dippers and I don't know enough about any of these guys to know who's who other than to look at results and look for matching names and cars on both results sheets. But the point is the STU cars are as fast currently as the fastest ITR/ITS cars. give them a couple years of development and the IT cars will be holding back the STU cars.

Now... since it's ProIT and anything that's not IT is crashing the party, would it be a faux pas to run something other than an IT car? If you're going to invite STx, why not invite Prod cars too? and and and and....

several variables here. how many do you want to incorporate?

Edit.... please realize I'm stirring the pot to smell the aromas, so to speak. As GA said, I don't have a dog in this fight either. I run one of those poorly-built STU cars in SW division and have finished 1/2 in class and 2/3/4 in group in the impressive 4 races I've run so far. But I also realize SoW Div is *not* the place to be (yet) for IT/ST cars. Nationally I'll be an also-ran, but I'm just a n00b and you better watch out in a couple years.

Mainly I'm here throwing caveats, what-ifs, gotchas, flys in the ointment, and pushing your buttons just to see what your opinions are on the subject.

[benspeed]

I say - you want to run Pro IT - get an IT car. No mercy for the STU guys who are envious of the AWESOME Pro IT series. Hey, you can go run NATIONALS. :-)

I'll be at the Nationals racing STU in my ITR ride getting CLOBBERED by the WC BMWs that are going to dominate...but I know that I'm going to get beat. It's different if I was going to visit a National to race SM in my ITR car so I can whip everybody. That would be very LAME.

[Jeremy Billiel]

But....

Most STL cars will not be faster than ITS cars and most STU cars are not any faster that ITR so its not a speed or danger issue. What you are claiming is that STX cars will screw up ITx races. How is this any different than any other combined race? if people in STx cars are being a douche kick them in the balls after the race?

[Andy Bettencourt]

But....

Most STL cars will not be faster than ITS cars and most STU cars are not any faster that ITR so its not a speed or danger issue. What you are claiming is that STX cars will screw up ITx races. How is this any different than any other combined race? if people in STx cars are being a douche kick them in the balls after the race?

Because we can AVOID THE PROBLEM ENTIRELY.

[Greg Amy]

Because we can AVOID THE PROBLEM ENTIRELY [by excluding some classes from the mix]

Ugh. What silly logic. If that's the goal, and that's your solution to whatever "problem" you're trying to resolve, then I think we need to make Pro-IT for *just* ITA cars, and *just* those with experience, and *only* those with a pre-approved top-notch prep. That way all four of you can have a wonderful, great, conflict-free, open track HPD day.

Silly, silly, silly.

[Dano77]

Kinda with Andy on this whole thing. Isnt it called Pro IT not Pro St. If you would like Pro Super Touring,they got that. its called World Challenge.

IT = Improved touring
ST = Super Touring

Dont get me started on the whole concept of ProIT,dont like it at all. Story for a different venue. But it is what it is and its here to stay. Leave Pro IT for IT cars.

Should lose the SM too but....

[ulfelder]

One driver's opinion: I will never, ever run Lime Rock in the Pro configuration.

Lime Rock is my favorite track even though I don't do particularly well there. I love the challenge of puckering up for the Uphill, West Bend and the Diving Turn all in rapid succession. For me, that is and always will be the track's appeal. Swap in a couple of slower, more technical chicanes or turns (note I resisted the urge to say "Mickey Mouse" ), and I'll pass.

By passing, will I miss out on a good thing? Maybe. But my race weekends are finite. I balance a bunch of factors in setting up my season schedule, as do most of us, and LRP loses its luster - for me - when those three gorgeous corners are pulled from the equation.

Steve

[Matt93SE]

I have a new name for Andy's proposed ProIT......