December Fastrack...

[JoshS]

Now are ALL National fields like that? No. Are all Regional fields strong? Of course not. It's a complex matrix of local customs, tracks and classes. Regional racing is strong in the east, but National is stronger in the west, from what I hear.

Not the Pacific coast ... we're too far from the Runoffs to use that as any sort of attraction.

We routinely get 300+ entrants for each Regional weekend. We're lucky to get 150 for our ONLY national weekend ... the region can't pay the bills with National races.

In addition, to zchris who somehow concludes that Nationals races at better tracks ... what? I think in general they use the same tracks, only there are fewer national races. From here in the large San Francisco Bay Area, I can do 15 regional races a year at three very high-quality tracks within 3 hours of home (Laguna Seca, Infineon/Sears Point, and Thunderhill). If I want to race in my division for the Runoffs, I only get to race at one of those three tracks (Thunderhill), and only one weekend. The other tracks in my division are 12 and 15 hours away. It's no wonder that the national program is dead out here.

[lateapex911]

Not the Pacific coast ... we're too far from the Runoffs to use that as any sort of attraction.

We routinely get 300+ entrants for each Regional weekend. We're lucky to get 150 for our ONLY national weekend ... the region can't pay the bills with National races.

In addition, to zchris who somehow concludes that Nationals races at better tracks ... what? I think in general they use the same tracks, only there are fewer national races. From here in the large San Francisco Bay Area, I can do 15 regional races a year at three very high-quality tracks within 3 hours of home (Laguna Seca, Infineon/Sears Point, and Thunderhill). If I want to race in my division for the Runoffs, I only get to race at one of those three tracks (Thunderhill), and only one weekend. The other tracks in my division are 12 and 15 hours away. It's no wonder that the national program is dead out here.

yea, I mis-spoke when I wrote that. Good points Josh, I was thinking "texas" when I wrote it, but wanted to be conservative in my post. My observations of the East Coast match yours of the West. Regions struggle to break even hosting a National, and offering a unique format is being used more often.

[Knestis]

How do you award Divisional and Regional points? Designated named events?

Every SCCA club racing event would count.

With respect, Chris - you are missing the entire point. You probably can't even conceive of it but I'm talking about changes to a program to improve the program - not to benefit my personal interests. My scheme would do nothing to keep you at home. It would simply reward you most - assuming you win - for traveling to where the competition is greatest, rather than thinnest. It also wouldn't change how I approach MY racing. I'd still rather spend my hard-earned $$ on track time and competition rather than travel and thin grids.

(Note here that current circumstances dictate that I live in NY and race primarily in the mid-Atlantic area.)

On the "delay planning" question, Jake, I might not have been clear - if I understand the question. Participation numbers from each season would establish the Ruboffs program for the NEXT year.

Frankly, Chris, you are doing a great job of illustrating the selfish, National-centric, me-first kind of attitude that substantially limiting the overall success of the Club's amateur program. I understand it. I just think it's unfortunate.

K

[Tristan Smith]

Great. Thanks Greg. Guess I'll put the seat brace on that damn thing.

[Z3_GoCar]

Not the Pacific coast ... we're too far from the Runoffs to use that as any sort of attraction.

We routinely get 300+ entrants for each Regional weekend. We're lucky to get 150 for our ONLY national weekend ... the region can't pay the bills with National races.

In addition, to zchris who somehow concludes that Nationals races at better tracks ... what? I think in general they use the same tracks, only there are fewer national races. From here in the large San Francisco Bay Area, I can do 15 regional races a year at three very high-quality tracks within 3 hours of home (Laguna Seca, Infineon/Sears Point, and Thunderhill). If I want to race in my division for the Runoffs, I only get to race at one of those three tracks (Thunderhill), and only one weekend. The other tracks in my division are 12 and 15 hours away. It's no wonder that the national program is dead out here.

Based on my observation of the numbers while flagging at Nationals races, in SoPac Nationals seem less immune to economic influences. Part of that may be due to cross over from SanFran guys comming South instead of adding hours of tow time to race in Division. In the SS, T, small bore Production division, we had four alerts for rollovers.

[lateapex911]

On the "delay planning" question, Jake, I might not have been clear - if I understand the question. Participation numbers from each season would establish the Ruboffs program for the NEXT year.

Frankly, Chris, you are doing a great job of illustrating the selfish, National-centric, me-first kind of attitude that substantially limiting the overall success of the Club's amateur program. I understand it. I just think it's unfortunate.

K

Ahhhhh, winner!

[924Guy]

Kirk put it so eloquently. I'd have just said, what a schmuk.

I'm putting the finishing touches on my National car this winter. I know the competition is gonna suck, at least until such point as I get to the Runoffs. I'll be going from a 10-20 car in-class field to all of 5 cars, with probably a spread of up to 10s difference from first to last. Gee, that sounds like fun.

All this in the quest to go a ton faster, and get into the Big Show. There, I hope to use my extensive experience actually racing against other drivers in traffic to give me an edge most don't have, thanks to lack of experience. Hey, it's about the only advantage I am likely to have, so I gotta lean on it...

Yeah, what a schmuk.

[zchris]

Well you guys have managed to twist most everything I have said to suit your needs. I'd say I care, but it comes from the Bomber class racers of the club and its what I would expect from this group. The only thing that worries me is that some of you may come and crash your way into national racing. I guess in that respect I am a selfish smuck. That or I enjoy coming home with as little crash damage as possible every week. A trip to Youtube to watch some IT highlights will show you what I mean. Swing away boys.
Chris

[Knestis]

Well you guys have managed to twist most everything I have said to suit your needs. I'd say I care, but it comes from the Bomber class racers of the club and its what I would expect from this group. The only thing that worries me is that some of you may come and crash your way into national racing. I guess in that respect I am a selfish smuck. That or I enjoy coming home with as little crash damage as possible every week. A trip to Youtube to watch some IT highlights will show you what I mean. Swing away boys.
Chris

Oh, yeah - that's awesome.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Anyone who thinks IT is the 'bomber class' or 'jalopy class' just simply hasn't been paying attention. For every video you could come up with, I could find just as many from other classes.

All I think people are saying is that it is a legitimate idea to do away with the 'non-regional' designation of IT and invite the top classes to the Runoffs. Heck - I have said from the beginning that ALL the classes should get to go, the top in particicpation get their own rungroup, the others share space.

But some people will hold with a white-knuckle grip to the old thought processes and perceptions of classes and prep levels and drivers. And they can as they watch their beloved classes wither away.

[Greg Amy]

C'mon, Chris, come off the high horse; I know you're better than that.

Or, maybe I'm wrong and you're not.

Whatever.

GA

[924Guy]

Well you guys have managed to twist most everything I have said to suit your needs. I'd say I care, but it comes from the Bomber class racers of the club and its what I would expect from this group. The only thing that worries me is that some of you may come and crash your way into national racing. I guess in that respect I am a selfish smuck. That or I enjoy coming home with as little crash damage as possible every week. A trip to Youtube to watch some IT highlights will show you what I mean. Swing away boys.
Chris

Hmm. Seems to me, if you actually were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be worried about a bunch of hacks in jalopies getting anywhere near you on the racetrack.

[zchris]

Andy, you have a nice car and you drive the wheels off it. There are also lots of nice cars in IT. Bomber class merely means entry level like in circle track. We diverege in that I think IT should be the entry level platform for the club. You do not. I think it is important that there should be at least one easy to build, inexpensive location for the newb to start at. This club is difficult enough to navigate without having to spend 30k on a front row build. And unfortunately that is what IT has become. It is not just me either. The club created the ST classes just for those that want more than what IT as a regional only class has to offer. The argument that IT is better competition are another place where I disagree. You race in say a 20 car ITA car field. In that race you only go toe to toe with 1 or 2 other guys the entire race if at the pointy end of field. Everyone else is a field filler. Now that would only not be true if you qualified poorly for some reason. I race in FP and at limerock there are 6 FP cars. I still have 2 of the 5 that I go toe to toe with. I bet I have as much fun as any IT guy. The car counts have been down everywhere, especially in nationals. It just plain costs more to run at the pointy end of the field nationally. That sucks. But will turn around as the economy comes back. I also believe that IT and SM has problems with the definition of acceptable contact. Jake, I believe you are also signed up in the stewards program. It will be interesting to see where that takes us both. That Watkins Glen video I have always had a problem with. Maybe others consider that acceptable. I have a hard time with it. It will be good to see if we can both get clarification on that. I'm not trying to bust balls. Just another place where we diverge. It always surprized me as you are such a rules nerd. And yes I do not like crash damage, it only cost money that would be otherwise used for racing. I do not consider IT guys all hacks. Only about 15% of them are hacks. Thats probably true club wide reg/nat both. The "IT problem" I have heard compared to the movie Failure to Launch. You all want to stay at home because its what you know and are comfy there. I have now run ITB, SM,SSM GT2 and FP and have found fun racing and nice poeple in all of them. SM was just to expensive in the bodywork costs. From my poimt of view its the IT guys who want it to go national that are the self centered ones. It just depends where you stand.
Chris

[lateapex911]

Well you guys have managed to twist most everything I have said to suit your needs. I'd say I care, but it comes from the Bomber class racers of the club and its what I would expect from this group. The only thing that worries me is that some of you may come and crash your way into national racing. I guess in that respect I am a selfish smuck. That or I enjoy coming home with as little crash damage as possible every week. A trip to Youtube to watch some IT highlights will show you what I mean. Swing away boys.
Chris

Yea, we had to do a lot of twisting of words and phrases like that! Jeez, Chris, are you TRYING to look foolish? Stuff like that is priceless.

Of COURSE you come home with no damage....there's a lot less close racing for the most part at nearly all the National races I've attended.
As for 'entry level', I guess you don't care to read, or have a mind that accepts alternate ideas.

As far as I'm concerned, let the weak die. That might be ITC. Oh well. It might be H -Prod. Boo hoo. Let the strong survive. That's Spec Miatas. Oooo, Chris, that's a GREAT example of why you like National racing, no damage to the car...what class does THAT better than SM!?

This is too easy.....somebody stop me.

[Knestis]

... I guess in that respect I am a selfish smuck. That or I enjoy coming home with as little actual racing as possible every week. ...

Fixed to reflect the average 4.5 cars/race FP got in 2010 Nationals. Seriously. Think about that. At some critical minimum tipping point, it really stops being a race.



As for entry level, you haven't a clue about how this game works. I can build a $4000 FP car or a $4000 ITA car. I'll be a tail-ender regardless but there's TWO options for an "easy to build, inexpensive location for the newb to start at." But you think it's "unfortunate" that someone can't run up FRONT for entry level dough in IT...? It's racing, dude.

K

[Chip42]

I completely fail to see the requirement for a correlation between cost and prestige.

mid-pack (when enough cars show up for their to be a "pack") prod cars are cheaper to build than IT cars. all the required factory parts add up. anyone can throw away 3/4 of a car.

front running IT cars are close to the price of any front-running national sedan class.

it's all about the numbers. when you come in 3rd in a 20 car field - you probably worked for it, before and during the race. when you doe the same in a 6 car field, it's a lot less likely. grand-am sucks compared to ALMS, technologically. but they have numbers and tight rules. PIA? yes. but it makes for good racing when they have it sorted out. some of us will still want to build/drive/watch ALMS cars (I helped to build / run a FP civic that was SARRC champ in 2008 and am having a hard time resisting the urge to scratch the STU itch) but you can't deny the success of the GrandAm series - technology be damned. same thing as nat's vs IT.

I swear this sounds like the 80's when they mixed prod and IT run groups and the prod guys all cried because they have plastic fenders on their british stuff and those pinto drivers would break them. because they are bombers...

[Andy Bettencourt]

So maybe we can agree that in ANY field of SCCA racing (or NASA or whatever) only a few guys car really win unless they get taken out of have a failure. So be it. You might be surprised to know that maybe half of classes at the Runoffs had the top 3 on the same second (fast lap). FIELD FILLERS by definition. Even at the big dance.

How much further would an IT guy fron the NE have to travel other than NHMS, LRP, WGI, Pocono, Summit and Lightning/Thunder for you to to consider them 'launchable'? You can't fault IT guys for running the Series that are presented to them at the tracks they are held at.

And entry level? Really? Like Kirk said, you could build a $4K Prod car and a $4K IT car and find yourself in the same spot on the starting grid. The more popular a class, the more money gets spent by the top guys. Can't name a racing series where it isn't true - and if you come up with one, it's certainly the exception, not the rule.

It's time guys like you stop looking down on IT. Tons of talent, tons of great cars and a METRIC SH!T-TON of actual racers. Easily the most popular non-spec class in the land.

The only arguement I have heard to keep it bottled up is that it's the cash cow any change may hurt the class. I don't buy it but it's been said. The rest of the arguements about 'entry level' are all just smoke and mirrors.

And why am I 'self centered' because I want to take a car with the ruleset I love - to a real National Championship? I don't get it.

[924Guy]

Oh, this is gonna be fun...

Bomber class merely means entry level like in circle track.

...with all the disparaging sentiment associated with most references to circle-track.

This club is difficult enough to navigate without having to spend 30k on a front row build. And unfortunately that is what IT has become.

Then your perspective is, well, lacking perspective. 30k may be necessary for some IT classes. Not all. There's also the question of buying, for $0.50 on the dollar. Oh, and don't forget that front-row means different things, depending on where you go. Front row IT cars in the NW are, I'm guessing, a lot cheaper, given smaller turnout.

Furthermore, as surely you should be able to appreciate with all your experience, buying a "front row car" by no means guarantees a front row seat... the driver's by far the more important part of that package, at least in the slower classes of club racing.

The club created the ST classes just for those that want more than what IT as a regional only class has to offer.

Hmmm... I never got that impression, in all these years of watching ST reinvent itself. Seems more like they just picked up on current IT cars as a great way to pad their numbers till dedicated cars are built/bought. Nothing wrong with that, I've done it myself before (growing a series).

The argument that IT is better competition are another place where I disagree. You race in say a 20 car ITA car field. In that race you only go toe to toe with 1 or 2 other guys the entire race if at the pointy end of field. Everyone else is a field filler. Now that would only not be true if you qualified poorly for some reason.

I race in FP and at limerock there are 6 FP cars. I still have 2 of the 5 that I go toe to toe with. I bet I have as much fun as any IT guy.

Funny... you disregard everyone behind you as "field filler" and not really any sort of competition. I once had a similar lament, as I was finishing up driving my ITB car, that there wasn't really any competition out there. My father-in-law, with decades of experience in professional and college-level sports, pointed out kindly that those behind me wouldn't agree with that assessment.

Short of a spec series, when does one actually get to go toe-to-toe with more than 2-3 other cars at a given time? That is as good as it really ever gets; if you're getting that in FP, you're lucky, and that's by no mean the norm. Even getting 5-6 cars out there in one Prod class seems to be an aberration, given a brief perusal of results sheets around town. IT may not be the only place to get that experience, but it's most consistently so, in the widest geographical area, among the SCCA classes.

The "IT problem" I have heard compared to the movie Failure to Launch. You all want to stay at home because its what you know and are comfy there. ...From my point of view its the IT guys who want it to go national that are the self centered ones. It just depends where you stand.
Chris

?? I have trouble defining a response to this, because it seems contradictory; on the one hand, you mock us for supposedly wanting to stay big fish in a small pond... OTOH, you complain that we should not want to take our jalopies to the National arena?

That doesn't gibe with the regular, significant turnout of IT drivers at the IT-Fest and ARRC every year, all those who are looking for the big race turnout and fields to see how they measure up. I've BTDT, there's many here who have also.

It's not a matter of trying to "game" the system to ensure our individual cars have an advantage over everyone else in the class, and making sure that no new cars are allowed in class with the chance of "upsetting the existing balance" aka competitiveness out of the box. This is the selfishness we've come to despise in so many National drivers.

Rather, the push for National recognition is just that; the push for recognition of all the hard work and effort put in to create a Nationally-competitive racing program, represented by our cars, our teams, and our development. Maybe this is just a good example of how effective the club's development program is, in creating such successful examples (Ruck being the shining beacon for all of us, as of late). But having to practically throw everything in the trash and start over to change classes, learn new cars, etc? Does that really make sense?

For the record, I'm not one of those who's rabid about taking IT National. I'm more supportive of elimination the National/Regional distinction, though I do see that it may have some good reasons for existing (particularly relating to phasing out under-subscribed classes).

But I take issue with your characterization and blanket dismissal of IT drivers and cars. That's what we call prejudice, and it's ugly no matter if it's based on skin color, religion, region, or simply the car you drive.

Do we act like we have a chip on our shoulders? Yes, and posts like yours exemplify just why. It's hard to feel a welcome and valuable member of the club when you're relegated to the other side of the tracks...

[Greg Amy]

You guys are wasting your time. You're trying to argue against an age-old misguided bias in Club Racing.

This bias is basically that racing has "levels" of progression from "simplex to complex", from "unskilled to skilled", from "amateur to professional". As you progress up these levels the level of competition - and the costs - increase. As a racer, you are expected to start at the simplex, unskilled, amateur level, and as you build experience and "work the model" to gain benevolent sponsors to support you through your arts, you are expected to move up to that next level. At some point in your career - with hard work, increased skill levels, and the help of the Baby Jesus - you, too, can become a complex skilled professional.

And, of course, if one does not "progress" through that biased model it is de facto proof of your lack of complexity, possession of skills, and lack of professionalism. Further, anyone who actually chooses to "stop" at a level prior to either the ultimate completion of Ladder of Progress (tm: tGA) or does not ultimately fail to progress and leave the sport entirely is despicable and an abortion of the true intent and spirit of this art/sport. By doing this you are, in fact, insulting those around you by trying to be a "Big Man on a Small Campus" (BMoC; i.e., Big Fish in a Small Pond). Those that do this should be ashamed of themselves; any evidence that they are not ashamed of this is further proof of their smallness of character.

You guys may as well be arguing against a specific religious dogma, because that's exactly what this is.

Welcome home.

GA, who's looking forward to reading about Chris Howard's next steps up the Ladder Of Progression (tm: tGA) in 2011 - maybe a top-flight World Challenge build? - thus leaving opportunities in SCCA Production racing to those behind him that are less complex, less skilled, and less professional than he is...we sincerely hope it's not his goal to be a BMoC in something as "amateur" as SCCA Prod racing...

[ner88]

Is there anyone out there that doesn't believe that regional racing supports National racing?
A few years ago SCCA told Pro racing "get profitable or else".
Maybe it's time!