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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    NER
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    211

    Default Updating/Backdating

    I was looking through the GCR trying to figure out what is legal and what is not in ST, and think the rules may need work.
    Alternate engines of the same manufacturer (Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infinity, Toyota/Lexus, etc) are legal, but next to nothing is written on it.


    G. Engine
    1. Alternate engines may be used, given that if the manufacturer of the vehicle and engine are the same (e.g., an Acura
    engine installed into a Honda car) and was available in a car delivered in North America. The chosen engine must
    retain its original cylinder head and intake manifold. If an engine from a front wheel drive vehicle is installed in a rear
    wheel drive vehicle, alternate OEM intake manifolds may be considered.


    I can't believe that is all that is written on the use of alternate engines. I was expecting pages. I have done tons of swaps in my day, SR's, B, D and K's in Hondas, 5 lug swaps, brakes swaps and they are never just cut and dry.
    You can't just make a blanket statement "alternate engines may be used".
    If alternate engines can be used, updating/backdating really has to be legal. Putting an engine from a different model of the same manufacturer most times requires updating/backdating.
    Driveshafts/axles may need updating/backdating
    Subframes may need updating/backdating
    When subframes are updated/backdated it usually now means the suspension arms will also need to be.
    The steering rack also may need to be updated/backdated.



    Looking at the brake section:
    E. Brakes
    1. OEM brake systems must be used. Alternate OEM brakes rotors or calipers from the same manufacturer will be
    considered.
    If OEM brakes from the same manufacturer is allowed, which I really think it should be. OEM brake upgrades are cheap and effective.
    Spindles, forks, hubs, and arms may need to be updated/backdated.
    Proportional valves, brake boosters, master cylinders, abs components, and e-brake components may need to be updated/backdated to safely run the upgraded brakes.
    Updating/backdating these parts really doesn't increase the cars performance at all, it just makes it possible to run the alternate engine and/or brakes correctly as the manufacturer designed it. If you are allowing the performance upgrade (engine/brakes) you really need to allow the parts to have it done to factory spec.
    As long as the parts* were available on a 1985 or newer USDM car, from the same manufacturer, unmodified to make fit (should bolt in factory fit), then I think they should be legal.
    *subframes, steering rack, driveshaft/axels, arms, spindles, forks, hubs, proportional valve, brake booster, master cylinder, abs components, and e-brake components.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Northeast
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    7,031

    Default

    An excellent series of questions, one I have thought about. However, I bounce back to this:

    'If it says you can, than you bloody well can'...unless it says you can't.

    So in a nutshell, drop in that motor, add your custom motor mounts, drive shaft, etc, etc....UNLESS it tells you that something is prohibited (or on the flip side - manditory - like stock suspension arms or pick up points, etc).

    'All allowed modifications may not perform a prohibited function' - or something like that. But the STAC may want to clarify the intent here. One thing I will caution you on is the 'but this doesn't really increase the cars performance' arguement - because that is a red-herring. Of course it does. If you have to do 'it' to install the better motor, then it contributes a ton to the increased performance.
    Last edited by Andy Bettencourt; 12-05-2010 at 11:17 AM. Reason: spelling
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    NER
    Posts
    211

    Default

    Thanks Andy for the insight.

    My point on 'it doesn't increase the cars performance' is related to the engine mounts, driveshafts, etc to make the swap happen, not the engine. They are allowing the increased performance (the alternate engine), but if you are not allowed to updated/backdate the supporting parts to make it happen, what is the point of making alternate engine legal, if it can't be done legally. Not to mention the position of an alternate engine will not be in the same location as the original.

    Just hate to build a car that get's deemed illegal...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 0100 View Post
    Just hate to build a car that get's deemed illegal...
    At this point in the game, I suggest a little conservatism and patience is in order. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn when I say that, in my own personal opinion, while it's generally settled the category is not quite fully baked, and general concepts such as these are not yet fully understood.

    How long that will take is up for debate, but again I don't think I'm out of line when I say that the STAC has scheduled a concall to exclusively discuss the core philosophy of the category and how that will affects rules, changes, and "interpretations" going forward.

    Just sit tight for now, the category's not going away.

    GA

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    Northeast
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    Default

    Greg's point is correct, however, the CRB and STAC need to understand they have a class and a set of rules out there now. People may build. This stuff needs to get nailed down YESTERDAY.
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,381

    Default

    Amen, brother. Amen.

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