STL - what's going to be hot?

[Andy Bettencourt]

But this is different. You have made it very clear in a couple posts that some should be content and shut up that there may be a class that a Miata won't be competive in. Now I have the ability to take the model out of the discussion and fully agree with you. Some classes are designed with paramters that exposes beauty marks and warts. STL is one of those that magnifies those attributes a lot...but I don't think you WANT the Miata to be competitive. As a Ad-Hoc member, you shouldn't care.

[Greg Amy]

...but I don't think you WANT the Miata to be competitive. As a Ad-Hoc member, you shouldn't care.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Good try. But if ever you decide to stop stomping your feet and making a big scene in the grocery store and going to the garden to eat worms (and all that), you might be interested to learn you're - once again - wrong. I've actually been discussing how to make the class more attractive to the gay set, given they're apparently proving to be far too spoiled and whiny (Tyler's pressing interest excluded) to give it a shot. But I'm assured that in the end others who think differently than you (and not just Miata or Honda drivers) are "manning up" and taking the challenge.

But on a much brighter note, I think we now have a new IT.com strategic corollary to put up on the mantle next to The Roffe; I'll call it "The Bettencourt Corollary":

"I am just not the sucker who is going to waste money to prove that a car...needs some help."

Glad you've finally recognized that position.

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Good try. But if ever you decide to stop stomping your feet and making a big scene in the grocery store and going to the garden to eat worms (and all that), you might be interested to learn you're - once again - wrong. I've actually been discussing how to make the class more attractive to the gay set, given they're apparently proving to be far too spoiled and whiny (Tyler's pressing interest excluded) to give it a shot. But I'm assured that in the end others who think differently than you (and not just Miata or Honda drivers) are "manning up" and taking the challenge.

But on a much brighter note, I think we now have a new IT.com strategic corollary to put up on the mantle next to The Roffe; I'll call it "The Bettencourt Corollary":

"I am just not the sucker who is going to waste money to prove that a car...needs some help."

Glad you've finally recognized that position.

GA

LMAO. All of that gibberish to point out in a grade-school way that I don't think the car can be competitive? If you would take off your Miata-hater glasses and read the posts - I don't really care if ANY car is competitive. It's a thread about what can be and why or why not. I also pointed out - factually BTW - that your posts in the past have certainly inferred that you are happy that this isn't a class that will be 'overrun' by Miatae.

The fact you have come to grips finally that it's a class with rules that limit the viable choices is evident in your new-to-us effort to broaden the appeal. And that's a good thing.

On your new corollary, love the "..." because it takes it out of context. When you write it again, make sure you include the 'that nobody WANTS competitive" as was originally written.

Onto the data for everyone else: Just talked with Tyler and he has TWO sources that are confirming he can make the power that he is targeting. Still well below the Honda's but well within his goals for on-track parity. I liked what he had to say and it seemed to fly in the face of what I learned in my conversation with another prominant engine builder yesterday. If I had to go with my gut, I would lean toward his conclusions and think that if the CRB was willing to tweak some, it could be a decent choice.

For those of us who like RWD, is anyone considering anything conceptually other than an MR2 hybrid?

[Greg Amy]

...love the "..." because it takes it out of context.

Noooo....I took it out because you're wrong about that part, and spouting unsupported emotional tantrums. I figured it was better for you to not quote that part.

If you really want to believe that "that nobody WANTS [the Miata to be competitive in STL]", like there's some black-helicopter conspiracy among the STAC (or even the Club as a whole!) to actively develop a class that's intended to make the Miata uncompetitive (esp given the STAC has a very-Miata guy on it), well, I suppose you you can believe that, but the paranoia is misplaced. There is no one that I've ever spoken to that "wants" that in any shape or form. In fact I've heard quite the opposite!

At best, you can argue that we're just not willing to make the mental and categorical twisting gyrations that it would take to shoehorn that car into yet another category, like it's some kind of pre-ordained right that the Miata be competitive wherever it lies. Nope, sorry, it's not a right.

Call the class whatever you want, but in the end the rules are plainly right out there for everyone to choose. Members can take it, or leave it.

I think we have your answer... - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Call the class whatever you want, but in the end the rules are plainly right out there for everyone to choose. Members can take it, or leave it.

And I have never said otherwise, nor have I campaigned to have any adjustments made to any one car. What I have done is made suggestions (13-bee) that may allow for some diversity in a very popular chassis. Thinking about the CLASS's success.

As to the black helicopter rhetoric, of course not. But just be careful when you post stuff like this because it, right, or wrong, adds to your Miata mystique.

I'm really sorry that Mazda doesn't make BSHP (hp/cc) as good as others do, but maybe you should direct such misplaced ire at them instead? GOD FORBID we have a class in this club where the Miata isn't a dominant car..."just sayin"...

Especially when there was NO mention of the Miata prior to you typing it. You have a very thick skin, but lets try and see the classes critisism for what it is.

Listen, I think it's very fair that many are worried about the success of the class given the amount of cars that people perceive to be capable of competing. No more and no less from me.

[Matt93SE]

Oh I'm still running (In STU, with a 130k mile stock engine). I'm just waiting on STU and STL to figure out what they're going to do before I dump any cash into the car.
If the SR20DET is allowed, then I may go that way. Otherwise it's dump $10k into a KA to get the same power I can by dropping in an SR w/ appropriate inlet restrictor for $2500.

If they don't allow the SR20DET, then I'll see about an SR20DE (non turbo version) and run in STL. problem there is I've already got the bigger brakes and a few other minor things that would have to go away. I'd spend money to go slower. not what I want.

I'm sitting with money in the bank to buy the engine, dog box, and aero. But I'm not spending a penny until STAC makes up their mind what they're going to do. I'm not willing to throw $15k in the trash.


On the brakes note..
Front Hawk HT-10 for Wilwood Dynalite= $59. They last me a season. $85 2-pc Coleman rotors have been on for 2 seasons and still have lots of life left. custom machined hats cost me $100 each at a local fab shop. Caliper mounting bracket took me a couple hours in the garage with a drill press, digital calipers, and a sharpie.

Total investment in TONS of front brake: $725. that's for rotors, pads, calipers, hardware, brake lines, everything. My expendables are now under $150 per year.

Hawk HT-10 brake pads to fit 300ZX rear (2 piston) calipers. $120 a set.
Hawk HT-10 pads to fit front 300ZX (4 piston) calipers: $150 a set.
Hawk Blue for stock S14 240SX: $120/set.

throw in 3 sets of front rotors and a set for the rear $100/set and I'm looking at roughly $700/year in brake parts to keep the stock brakes on the car.

[coreyehcx]

Im currently working slowly on my Honda for this class and will be going non vtec.

Im just hoping for larger brakes to be approved like my current ITR oem brakes I have on my civic. I would want everyone to have better braking options as mentioned with increased speeds, its somewhat of a safety concern I would think outside of making more cars more attractive (attractive as in more vehicles).

[Matt93SE]

For those of us who like RWD, is anyone considering anything conceptually other than an MR2 hybrid?

Still waiting on rules to stabilize before I come out of the closet.......

[Greg Amy]

Still waiting on rules to stabilize before I come out of the closet.......

A very reasonable position to take...

However, I can tell you with confidence that there are ZERO major rules changes afoot in STL except for consideration of two requests from me, one to allow alternate brakes in STL and one to allow the MX-5 in STL in SM5 trim (I'm such a Miata hater! ).

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

A very reasonable position to take...

However, I can tell you with confidence that there are ZERO major rules changes afoot in STL except for consideration of two requests from me, one to allow alternate brakes in STL and one to allow the MX-5 in STL in SM5 trim (I'm such a Miata hater! ).

GA

Do you feel there is a big need for alternate brakes? These cars are so sttractively light that I wonder if there is a need...but also can't think of much of a downside except for cost issues.

[tyler raatz]

Do you feel there is a big need for alternate brakes? These cars are so sttractively light that I wonder if there is a need...but also can't think of much of a downside except for cost issues.

I would LOVE big brakes. The miata will be the same weight as my ITA car but have WAY more straight line speed. Chassis wise they will be virtualy identical except for downforce, slow speed corners following a long straight will require much more brake force. Good race pads for Wilwood calipers are also significantly cheaper then pads for the OE brakes.

I also dont consider the cars to be "so sttractively light", I will need to carry around 300# of ballast and the car is not undergoing a major weight loss program.
2100 to 2200 pounds would be a better more attractive weight for a 1.8L car, the reason I might still abort and switch to EP or STU.

[Greg Amy]

Do you feel there is a big need for alternate brakes?

"Need"? No, certainly not in terms of performance or safety as some would suggest. My desire for brakes is purely that - a desire - and a recognition that alternate brakes fits right in with a philosophy of Lexan "glass", carbon fiber panels, lots of rollcage points, and seam welding (my request to disallow that last point was "not recommended").

GA

[Mrsideways]

Still waiting on rules to stabilize before I come out of the closet.......

Don't blame you there, but I hardly sat in a race car last year so it's time to get on track. I was the one who wrote the request for the headlights as I have an S2000 that both headlights were smacked up in the last accident the car had as a Touring 3 car. At $500 a light it was a tough pill to swallow. I've got some jerry rigged replica lights in there now to get it by till that passes.

But come race anyway, help build numbers. We have 22 in the class this weekend at sebring. That's gotta almost make the southeast numbers in one weekend.

STL looked to have the potential to be faster then STU. I was thinking K20 in a CRX, but I've heard that the K20 will be a banned motor. I think that 2zz in the Celica should be banned to as over on the celica forum there are a ton of them all stock to almost stock making near 180whp. Imagine a built one in a mid engine'd car. It's gonna put the power down far better then a FWD car, it's got much better weight distribution so it'll use the tires less. It's gonna be better under braking. I still think a K20 CRX could dominate STU. 240-250whp isn't very hard in one of those motors. I wish it were legal because I want to do a K24 in a 2nd Gen MR-2 as a daily driver.