New CRX in West Michigan

[darthmonkeyIT]

Hello everyone! I just recently acquired a 1990 Honda CRX Si that was listed in the classifieds.

(Can't link till four posts but its a 1990 Honda CRX Si in West Michigan area in the classifieds, White/green/yellow)

Looking at spending the winter working on the car and starting driver schools come next spring. I will be racing mostly in the Michigan/Great lakes region (Waterford, Grattan, Gingerman, Black Hawk, Nelson, maybe Mid O if I wanted to be brave my first season).

Here is what I know so far:

Drive Train:
4.73 final drive
Mugen header
Quaife differential
(1) dead battery
Engine manufacturer unknown
Exhaust is straight pipe with a mating coupling (nice for changing to a muffled exhaust for Waterford)

Suspension:
Eibach Springs (450# on the front, 650# on the rear)
Shocks are TBD (adjustable shock towers but there is no manufacturer marking visible)
Rear sway bar TBD (its there but I can't recognize the manufacturer)

Brakes:
Brembo Rotors
Hawk blue pads
Stock calipers
SS braid brake lines
Air ducting tube from front bumper back to rotors

Looking to get the car underside cleaned well and removing the sound deading from the bottom and interior. Doors are left intact so I will be removing the door plastic and windows and need to add NASCAR side bars to make the cage legal.

Anything else I get to this winter will just be nice extras.

I will probably be browsing here like mad for tips and advice. I will try and avoid as many dumb questions as I can.

Again hello everyone and I look forward to racing with some of you next season!

[Eagle7]

Congrats and welcome. Must be David Kramer's car. I don't know anything about the car, but he was running it quite competitively when I started this madness. What's your name and where are you located?

[darthmonkeyIT]

Name is Sean Duncan and car will be located out of Ann Arbor. I live and work in Kalamazoo area.

For a few years I have been a F&C in the area with my father. Decided we should try being in the expensive toy rather then flagging them/pushing them/putting the fires out/hanging out with the ground hogs at corner stations.

[Ed Funk]

Don't work too hard on removing undercoat and sound deadening. I weigh 200 and we have to add 90 to make weight. That's with the undercoat there.

Good luck they're fast and fun!

[JLawton]

This is one of the most "newbie" friendly site you'll find. Don't worry about asking questions you think are silly.

Have you bought Dave Gran's book yet??

[darthmonkeyIT]

I have not grabbed a copy of Dave's book yet. I have visited his website and read through many of the articles on there. Probably will look at grabbing a copy in the next few weeks and read it over the holidays.

[mossaidis]

welcome sir! I hope you enjoy the addiction. Let me add to your list...

Drive Train:
replace (1) dead battery

Engine manufacturer unknown - it be better Honda D16 (USDM) or you will need to change it or did you mean to say 'unknown builder'? For legality sake, you should be able to see if it's a Honda/Acura vs another easily. IF it's a Honda/Acura, look for an engine code stamped on the upper left hand side on the front of the block. your other bet is to pop the head off, check the piston codes and measure the bore/stroke and cc the heads - doing so will also allow to clean up the tb/im, head and pistons. Are your valve seals ok?

I assume it has the IT fixings like kill switch, padding, fire bottle, etc.

Suspension:

Eibach Springs (450# on the front, 650# on the rear) - do you have coilover or groove mounted springs? The rates seem fine for starters, others use stiffer rates

Shocks are TBD (adjustable shock towers but there is no manufacturer marking visible) having good sturdy shocks is so key. Koni makes a great race set with stiff valving and shortened rods, which can handle up to 1000# springs.

Rear sway bar TBD - don't worry about the manufacturer... measure the diameter using a tailor's ruler, size does matter and note the attachment points to the rear sub frame and lower control arms.

Brakes:
Brembo Rotors - probably lighter than most w/o warping, good choice

Hawk blue pads - change over to Hawk DTC 60's when you have a chance, they last longer and are nice to rotors w/o reduction in performance

Stock calipers - change seals and boots once every two years

"Anything else I get to this winter will just be nice extras. "
Other things come to mind (teehee):
- intake?
- underdrive pulley?
- light 14 or 15" rims with 205s?
- did the owner give you any advice on engine/tranny oil? (Redline 30wt, MTL or shockproof?)
- brake fliud, I think Motul works great!
- I assume you are running EFI, so get a good ECU and tune if it's not there already... Some folks here go with megasquirt or hondata s300. If you want to go nuts, get your injectors balanced and cleaned.
- bushings? any idea of what is there? depending on your budget, sphericals all the way around is the way to go with exception to lower shock mounts, which will only require poly. some companies make solid bronze front bushings with castor offsets... try PCI or progressive auto
- Assuming a full schedule, I am finding that ball joints, tie rods, axles and bearings (specifically the front) will need to get changed every two years though maintenance freq. differs from honda to honda model.
- Quiafe is a great start, but others are preferring the torsen type for greater hp and control.
- use a stock front dia sway bar

ok, that's all I got for now... good luck!

[darthmonkeyIT]

Engine manufacturer unknown - it be better Honda D16 (USDM) or you will need to change it or did you mean to say 'unknown builder'? For legality sake, you should be able to see if it's a Honda/Acura vs another easily. IF it's a Honda/Acura, look for an engine code stamped on the upper left hand side on the front of the block. your other bet is to pop the head off, check the piston codes and measure the bore/stroke and cc the heads - doing so will also allow to clean up the tb/im, head and pistons. Are your valve seals ok?

I did mean to say unknown builder. I will look into the code locations and see what I can find. Thank you very much!

I assume it has the IT fixings like kill switch, padding, fire bottle, etc.
Suspension:
Eibach Springs (450# on the front, 650# on the rear) - do you have coilover or groove mounted springs? The rates seem fine for starters, others use stiffer rates
Shocks are TBD (adjustable shock towers but there is no manufacturer marking visible) having good sturdy shocks is so key. Koni makes a great race set with stiff valving and shortened rods, which can handle up to 1000# springs.

The car has a roll cage, padding, fire system, and kill switch. The hood needs modified some for the kill switch because in the off position it actually interferes. So I will have to cut out a notch for it. I am lacking a transponder so I will need to get on of those before season starts.

The springs are a coil cover. Based on the color scheme (which probably means little) it might be the Eibach coil over kit. Again I need to take it apart some and see what I can find.

As far as the rates go, I feel comfortable sticking with these so I can learn to drive the car. Afraid if I stiffen up the spring I will start to get into the knife edge effect which is faster but I can be less mistakes high.

As far as shocks go, after I figure out what they are now I will decide if I want to change. Read some good reviews on the Koni yellows shortened and valved.

"Anything else I get to this winter will just be nice extras. "
Other things come to mind (teehee):
- intake?
- underdrive pulley?
- light 14 or 15" rims with 205s?
- did the owner give you any advice on engine/tranny oil? (Redline 30wt, MTL or shockproof?)
- brake fliud, I think Motul works great!
- I assume you are running EFI, so get a good ECU and tune if it's not there already... Some folks here go with megasquirt or hondata s300. If you want to go nuts, get your injectors balanced and cleaned.
- bushings? any idea of what is there? depending on your budget, sphericals all the way around is the way to go with exception to lower shock mounts, which will only require poly. some companies make solid bronze front bushings with castor offsets... try PCI or progressive auto
- Assuming a full schedule, I am finding that ball joints, tie rods, axles and bearings (specifically the front) will need to get changed every two years though maintenance freq. differs from honda to honda model.
- Quiafe is a great start, but others are preferring the torsen type for greater hp and control.
- use a stock front dia sway bar

I plan on doing all the belts, cables, lines, fluids, and clean up as much else as I can this winter.

It has Motul brake fluid in it now and I plan on using the same or another high performance fluid.

No info on the fluids. I will need to investigate what to swap out for the tranny/diff and what oil I will be running.

Many many many alloy 14" with 205's came with the car. The tires are all toast though sitting for 3+ years. 6 stock alloys and 6 performance alloys though.

Intake filter is unknown but the intake looks solid. I will be looking into that this winter as well.

ECU programming I admit I am a bit of a dummy at. I recently started looking into it and wasn't sure the best route to pursue. I believe the '90 CRX's are OBD0 correct? So for tuning I am looking at burning E-prom chips? Or am I totally in left field here? It was something I have been researching a bit but am running into the opposite effect so far: so much information out there I dunno what is good and what is bad.

Thank you so much mossaidis! I will be probably printing out your post and attaching it to the "To do" list.

-Sean

[Bob Roth]

Here's a lnk to the ad. https://improvedtouring.com...ad.php?t=28213 The car you have was built by Bill Artzberger in about 1994. Bill raced in the pro Firehawk series in the early '90's. Here is a picture of him in the CRX that I now own and raced from '94 till '05. http://www.pbase.com/mwphoto/image/58194068 believe he lives in Bloomington Michigan. Google Bill Artzberger Honda or Firehawk and you will find him. I rented from Bill a couple of times rides in the Firehawk series.

As I recall, yours was not a firehawk car, but was built with spare parts after he left the series. Bill knew a ton about building CRX'S so even if the parts may look old, chances are they are very good. Dave Kramer whom you bought it from was the second owner, was good too. Don't change anything until you really understand what you got and you know for sure you are making it better. Don't mess with the computer or fuel pressure. I would not change the header or intake system unless you have someone who knows roadrace hondas as you will probably throw away some excellent egine tuning and HP. I once made my CRX slower by changing a "crappy stock header" that turned out to be a hand built Honda piece. The lesson is that if you mess around with things without good guidance chances are you will slow yourself down. In my estimation, the difference between your car now and the fastest it will ever be with all the tuning and new race suspension you could buy is less than a second a lap.

When I raced Dave your car was virtually even with my times, so it should be plenty fast for the time being. We won a lot of races in those cars. You bought well, My suggestion would be to leave the car exactly as it is for a season before looking at improving anything. Learn to drive what you have first, its good enough.

My bet is your engine can run for at least 50 race hours or more hours without a rebuild. Don't rebuild it until you know you have a problem. Find out what gas dave ran and run that octane. Drain the old fuel before racing it, fuel loses octane with storage and these engines will break head gaskets and pistons if they ping. For things to look at, I would suggest getting a leakdown gauge and compression gauge and ask what good numbers should look like. As long as your numbers are in line, and the motor is not burning oil I'd leave it alone. Buy your self a shop manual, check the timing marks on the cam and the valve clearances. Run mobil1 10-30 in engine, and either Honda MTF or mobil 1 in the transmission. Change the brake fluid using the fluid you have (do not use silicon fluid), and also take a hard look at the rule book as belt cage and seat requirements keep changing. Shift slowly and your gearbox will last forever.

I would buy a spare CRX distributor (get a street used honda distributor, not a chinese rebuild or knockoff), spare axles and junkyard uprights so you can change them if you lose an ignitor, CV, or break a hub. (ps keep the uprights and other suspension pieces that came with the car because I bet they have more camber in them than stock. Use only Honda parts.

Find out how old the front hubs are and whether the hubs happen to be heardened firehawk hubs. You might be wise to change them if they are more than say 12 races old as modern tires make them break. If you plan to run 8 to ten races a season, conside changing the outside hub (drivers hub on clockwise tracks every season and the passenger hub every two seasons). If you ever are racing and all the sudden the brake goes to the floor but you get it back by pumping it, immediately stop racing and drive to the pits and jack it up and see if you have a "loose front wheel" caused by a broken front hub. If you keep racing on a broken hub, it will break the axle stub in about 10 laps wrecking your rotor, fender, axle and wheel. Then you get to see how good you are at driving without a wheel or brakes. (been there done that more than once in endurance races). Also keep track of your rear hub bearings, when they get loose, they are not long for the world. Once they get noisey, replace them before the next race. I suggest buying a new spare rear hub. The inside wheel's bearing always seems to wear out first.

Another thing, check once a weekend for cracks in the steering rack bracket and also lower rear A arm mounts. These cars are lightweight and you have a car with at least 12 years racing on it. A crack can form in the structure and a little inspection can prevent a lot of grief.

Save your tuning money and buy good tires. Ask Dave what size fits. If Money matters, I like BFG's as they wear like iron and are competitive. I assume Hoosier 225's are still the standard for the class. I assume dave was running 14 x 7 rims. Save your money and stick with them. I don't think you will see much advantage to go with bigger rims, especially in your first few years. Ask dave what times he did for the tracks you will be at, I think those times will be competitive and will be a good target for you to hit.

Dave raced serously for about 15 years, if you don't match his lap times in a couple of races don't blame the car. I figure you can get to 95% of his lap speed in about a season and 1/2. You got to hang your butt out in a CRX to go fast, which takes time and practice.

So, keep the car the same, save your money and buy lots of lap time first. Congratulations on getting about the best first race car I could imagine. One last thing, work really hard at not hitting other people. The front radiator support is soft and the hubs and wheels are exposed. If you nerf into someone and fold the radiator back, stop immediately as it kinks the hose and toasts the engine. If the car is overheating, find out why and save a good engine. Make friends with Miata drivers, you will be seeing tons of them. Remember money spent on body damage is money not spent on racing. Good luck, you will have a blast. bob

[mossaidis]

^^ yeah, what he said! (I bow.)

[darthmonkeyIT]

Here's a lnk to the ad. https://improvedtouring.com...ad.php?t=28213 The car you have was built by Bill Artzberger in about 1994. Bill raced in the pro Firehawk series in the early '90's. Here is a picture of him in the CRX that I now own and raced from '94 till '05.

Thank you so much Bob! This was very useful to know. Very excited about taking this car for a few laps come spring time.

Ran compression tests last night on the engine when warm. 192 to 200 PSI across the four cylinders. The engine seems to be in good shape so I will be taking your advice Bob and leave it alone aside from fluids, plugs, and belts.

New battery in the car and it fired right up.

Looking at the calipers they look a little "weathered" if thats a nice way to put rusty. I am planning on changing out the piston, spring, and checking the lines over the winter along with cleaning up the calipers. Same token I will be picking up a spare set of calipers just in case.

The water temp gauge is currently flat lined so I will need to trace down why that is. There is a small adjustable gage next to the oil pressure gage that has been disconnected from what ever function it used to serve. Our best guess is that it was a engine temp dial that was used to fool the system into thinking the engine was cold to enrich the fuel mixture. Again its been disconnected so were not sure what it used to do. This might have to do with why the water temp is not working though.

There is some rubbing marks on the outside of the strut arm on the back right wheel. Appears the wheel was rubbing against the strut arm under certain corner load. The left side does not have the same marks. I will be looking into maybe adding a spacer to get the wheels away from that arm. There is some puddy stacked up around that wheel well though from a earlier incident. I will need to trim that up to prevent the wheel from rubbing there with the spacer. I read about having to pinch the body work around the back wheels to get 225's to fit and I can see why. Would also need to run really stiff springs. Maybe after a couple years of learning to drive I will be doing the same.

[tom91ita]

not sure if you had a comment about the timing belt in there. no way it has hit the limit on miles but for years, it might be close or at least you might want to consider it.

for rear wheel bearings, i pick up used from newer EK civics at LKQ. some might cringe at this but my used ones have been lasting as long as new from honda.

also, sign up for Honda Performance, etc. to get HPD pricing. it has been about 6% less but then they charge mich sales tax and you don't have to worry your MI tax return. i have only bought parts that way once but it was for ~$500 and very easy to do.

sent a PM. i live in GR & work in kalamazoo.... if you need crew at gingerman or grattan, i am around or might be at the track. and my itb crx might be in your group.....

[Bob Roth]

Did you know your car finished 16th of 28 cars in the Grand Rapids World Challenge race in 1999?http://www.pbase.com/mwphoto0524/image/69806379 As I recall, Dave ran it IT trim meaning your 125 hp car beat 12 200 hp+ WC cars! cool!

Ps. You meet the nicest people racing Honda's

[Bob Roth]

I agree, get on the Honda program. Generally CRX brakes are pretty trouble free, for peace of mind you might rebuild with new seal and dust cover. The one time I rebuilt mine, I swore you need 3 hands to get them go back together. Never seen a caliper fail. Spares might be overkill unless you muck up the rebuild. Ps, I think others will agree that rear tires all rub on the rear arms. Again, take your time changing things unless you really think there is a problem.

[darthmonkeyIT]

Hello! Some updats as of this weekend.

The doors have been stripped out which will allow me to move some hefty weight around.

Put the car up in the air and went through all the nooks and crannies (did this before but jack stands can't substitute for a hydraulic lift 5 feet into the air). The ball joints look in good shape and they look like recent replacements. There is a concern with the stainless steel brake lines on all four corners. They come very close to the shock towers and I am concerned about rubbing. I was planning on replacing these anyway but I will be looking to either add some routing or buy some shorter brake lines to remove some of the bend.

The trailing arm that is rubbing on the right side appears to be doing so from a slight bend in the arm. The car was in a incident in 2003 about where the bend in the trailing arm is and it is offset towards the wheel a bit more then on the left side. The arm was raced on for the rest of 2003 and all of 2004/2005 so it "should" be ok. I will be investigating this more though and keep in mind to find one if I can just incase.

Some more questions for you amazing honda/racer people!

1. I need to buy a helmet and neck support (HANS). Any recommendations about going about this? From browsing I see this can become expensive very quickly (mostly the HANS which seems to be an solid price regardless of where I look). Any cautions about where to buy from and if I should be buying the helmet and HANS from the same place at the same time? I know most helmets come drilled for HANS devices already but in terms of suppliers and manufacturers are they all created equal in this regard? Right now looking at a SA2005 on discount with SA2010 coming out. Like the look of some of the BELL helmets right now.

2. Searching for parts. I have found a couple places locally that I can find some parts at (Junkyards, shops). I was just wondering if there was some good internet databases for finding parts cars/parts that people used. Any advice would appreciated.

3. I also need to acquire a transponder. The previous owner shared a transponder with a friend who drove formulas so they never overlapped in sessions. I don't need anything crazy fancy (lap timing LCD, speed tracking, etc.). What kind of unit am I looking for and where should I be looking to acquire one? There seems to be about 900 different "transponder" units out there and even more web sites selling them.

Thanks!

-Sean

[joeg]

Sean--There is only one transponder--an AMB 260.

Get the hardwired version and mount it permanently.

Helmets of SA 2005 vintage should be on sale everywhere. Check out ebay for ideas--remember, you want Snell SA 2005 or 2010.

[280ZX3]

I'm president of Bronco Motorsports. We run 2 '91 ITA CRX Sis in Midwestern Council as well as some local SCCA events.

Send me an email if you have any questions or need any parts!

[JLawton]

What kind of unit am I looking for and where should I be looking to acquire one? There seems to be about 900 different "transponder" units out there and even more web sites selling them.

Thanks!

-Sean

Do you mean data aquisition system? You must run a transponder, that's how T&S gets times........and scores......

If you mean a data system, see what other guys in your region are running. You'll want to compare your data with theirs. It's one thing looking at your own sessions and and trying to compare but looking at guys faster than you will be a bigger help.

[darthmonkeyIT]

Do you mean data aquisition system? You must run a transponder, that's how T&S gets times........and scores......

If you mean a data system, see what other guys in your region are running. You'll want to compare your data with theirs. It's one thing looking at your own sessions and and trying to compare but looking at guys faster than you will be a bigger help.

I knew about needing a transponder for T&S just I was confused with some advertising with them. I was seeing "transponders" being advertised with data systems as well. I was confirming what I "really" needed to get. Thank you for the clarification though.

This weekend I am taking a drive down to a local motor sports supply shop to have a look at some equipment. Specifically helmet sizing and head & neck restraints. They have a DefNder unit there that I am interested in looking at. I just recently found out about this unit and am now debating between this unit and a HANS. Going to have a look at both for pros and cons. I will post my opinon of the DefNder unit if I can have a look at one. I am not sure if they have a HANS on location or not.

Thanks!

-Sean

[jumbojimbo]

I have a defender and I am generally happy with it. I have never tried a HANS so I can't compare.

The only issues I have with the defender is that it does rub on my shoulder bones. And it is so wide in the chest that it forces me to spread my arms more than I want to. Essentially I have to keep my elbows out like I am driving a bus. I only notice either of these things on the warmup lap though, once I am driving I don't notice, it's not something that bothers me more and more as the session goes on.

Note: you can not really test a H&N for comfort without sitting strapped in a car. Without the belts you are just trying on a necklace.