Factory manual

[timo944]

The GCR requires competitors to have a factory manual available. Does this have to be printed or can it be electronic, assuming said competitor has the means with which to view the manual (i.e laptop).

If printed, does it have to be an original or is a copy sufficient?

Thanks...timo

[Z3_GoCar]

I suspose it depends on what you've got. When I go to the dealer, the only manual I can find for my Z3 is published by Robert Bentley. So, that's what I have...

[timo944]

So I'll bring the Haynes!!!

[Greg Amy]

So I'll bring the Haynes!!!

Haynes ain't gonna cut it.

[Chris Humphrey]

My GCR is on disc. I'd think a FSM on disc is good.

[Streetwise guy]

This is a rule that is going to become......troublesome, to say the least. I defy an owner of a late model european car to provide a "Factory" manual, unless he's willing to subscribe to the manufacturers online site, and have the neccesary hardware to run it.

[Greg Amy]

This is a rule that is going to become......troublesome, to say the least.

Trying to verify the proper specifications in impound for a 1976 car is also "troublesome" (at best). It's the competitor's responsibility to provide the manual that the factory declares is its "official" manual.

In my mind, the inability to procure such a manual is akin to the inability to procure fenders, rods, wheel bearings, what-have-you. It all fits in that "warts and all" section of the GCR (or ITCS, I don't remember which). As a scrutineer, I can tell you that should you be protested and/or called down by tech for inspection, and you cannot provide the factory manual listing the specs in question, it's an automatic "fale".

GA

[timo944]

Greg,

I agree. My original question though is "is electronic adequate?". I have it on disc but have never printed it.

Yes - I was kidding about the Haynes.

- Tim

[Greg Amy]

Yes, in my mind electronic is adequate. I don't think there's ever been an official ruling on that, but I'd accept it, myself.

GA, who developed an inordinate anti-social, near-sociopathic HATRED of Haynes manuals while growing up and learning to work on cars...only John Muir saved me from the clinker and allowed me to reach auto repair Nirvana...

[timo944]

Greg - "Thank you for yor input"

For the 944 at least, the Haynes is very good in that it gives you much better instruction on how to disassemble and re-assemble. it also calles things by their correct names in the torque list. The factory manual assumes that you have been the Dr. Porsche's factory repair class and speak Englitsch.

[Streetwise guy]

I'll speak of something I know, and work with daily. If I decided to build, say, a 2007 S60 Volvo, to provide a"Factory" service manual, these days, involves a subscription ( which is not even remotely cheap) to the factory website, and internet access. As far as I know, there have been no paper books for at least a decade, and Volvo does not produce anything on disc.

Alldata and Mitchell provide an accurate aftermarket source for the info needed- Alldata is the actual factory info just transferred into their system, and Mitchell takes the same info and "washes" it into their standard style. They are both available by subscription, although the professional system is $200 per month or so. Disc may still be available, but again, a subscription is required. As a professional who works with these systems daily, either one should be seen an acceptable alternative to the factory requirement.

I'm sure there are discs available from the aftermarket. As to their accuracy, I would think Haynes quality. It will be ripped from a legitimate source, but how complete?

I still say its gonna be troublesome, and maybe moreso than searching ebay for a Pinto service manual. Probably no more than ordering a new factory Pinto fender, though.

[Flyinglizard]

I have 20yrs the factory VW manuals. The Haynes has the same data. VW has no data in the area of cam timing specs, haynes has the same nothing data. I have never found any variences of any data, specs or sizes. Haynes should be fine IMHO.
When are they asked for?? I have never had mine looked at. This is not a National level event. MM
IMHO, the specs that are relavent to racing are not coverd by the books. Valve opening time, bore to piston value, deck size, valve seat from head distance, angle mill of the head, bore taper, reverse bore taper.
All the many small things that help an engine go faster are not covered or considered in the books. MM

[EV]

I'll speak of something I know, and work with daily. If I decided to build, say, a 2007 S60 Volvo, to provide a"Factory" service manual, these days, involves a subscription ( which is not even remotely cheap) to the factory website, and internet access. As far as I know, there have been no paper books for at least a decade, and Volvo does not produce anything on disc.

Alldata and Mitchell provide an accurate aftermarket source for the info needed- Alldata is the actual factory info just transferred into their system, and Mitchell takes the same info and "washes" it into their standard style. They are both available by subscription, although the professional system is $200 per month or so. Disc may still be available, but again, a subscription is required. As a professional who works with these systems daily, either one should be seen an acceptable alternative to the factory requirement.

I'm sure there are discs available from the aftermarket. As to their accuracy, I would think Haynes quality. It will be ripped from a legitimate source, but how complete?

I still say its gonna be troublesome, and maybe moreso than searching ebay for a Pinto service manual. Probably no more than ordering a new factory Pinto fender, though.

9.1.3.C says..

To establish the originality and configuration of the vehicle, each
driver/entrant shall have a factory shop manual for the specific make,
model, and year of the automobile. This manual shall be presented when
so requested at any technical inspection. If the factory shop manual is
no longer available from the vehicle manufacturer, an aftermarket shop
manual will be accepted with proof of non-availability from the vehicle
manufacturer. The proof of legality shall rest upon the protestor and/or
protestee

Sounds to me like something on official letter head from a dealership stating that there are no printed copies available should suffice as proof of the non-availability of an OEM manual.

[Wreckerboy]

...only John Muir saved me from the clinker and allowed me to reach auto repair Nirvana...

"Take a moment and grok the bus. Have people been happy, healthy, balling back here?"

A book that I learned well and the lessons taught translated well into Swedish for the Volvos I owned, later proper Anglican English for the Spridget and the B, and even Japanese eventually for a series of Toyotas. I still have my aircooled first edition copy, as well as a copy of the Watercooled version.

[Streetwise guy]

9.1.3.C says..
Sounds to me like something on official letter head from a dealership stating that there are no printed copies available should suffice as proof of the non-availability of an OEM manual.

Certainly does. I guess I should have actually found and read the rule before I started whining.

[downingracing]

9.1.3.C says..
Sounds to me like something on official letter head from a dealership stating that there are no printed copies available should suffice as proof of the non-availability of an OEM manual.

But there is a factory service manual available - electronic with a subscription. The fact that it’s expensive is unfortunate, but so is the fact that a Porsche 944 fender costs 10-20x what a fender for a Civic cost... I believe that rule is stating that if no factory service manual is available (in any form), then you can use an aftermarket manual with proof that there is no factory manual available.

I know when my Civic was in SS, I had to purchase the $190 FSM. Still have it to this day and use it whenever Shawn is working on my car!

[GKR_17]

I can tell you that should you be protested and/or called down by tech for inspection, and you cannot provide the factory manual listing the specs in question, it's an automatic "fale".

I wish that logic was more common. Part of my first protest was not allowed since I could not supply factory documentation on the cam duration for a BMW 2002 (the protested driver only supplied the Haynes, and I was given 15 minutes to produce the proper paperwork). Fortunately, from what I was told, once the valve cover was removed you could still read Schrick on the cam...

[EV]

But there is a factory service manual available - electronic with a subscription. The fact that it’s expensive is unfortunate, but so is the fact that a Porsche 944 fender costs 10-20x what a fender for a Civic cost... I believe that rule is stating that if no factory service manual is available (in any form), then you can use an aftermarket manual with proof that there is no factory manual available.

I know when my Civic was in SS, I had to purchase the $190 FSM. Still have it to this day and use it whenever Shawn is working on my car!

Per the rule in the GCR, how can you "present" an electronic, subscription based manual?

[Russ Myers]

The John Muir books gave me the greatest cure in the world for hiccups. Works every time.

Russ

[downingracing]

Per the rule in the GCR, how can you "present" an electronic, subscription based manual?

Laptop and wireless card/wi-fi connection/smart phone with data plan... I didn't say it was easy, or cheap. I said the service manual is available and the means to present the electronic subscription based manual exist. I know I've got a laptop and internet connection each weekend I'm at the track as do many others. If the shop manual was a 10 volume set (5" thick per volume), you'd have a heck of a time carting it around. But you'd still be required by the rules to present it when asked...