November Fastrack

[downingracing]

... And the best part? It's actually competitive in a REAL National class with lots of participation!

I just fail to understand why someone would have zero interest in that, yet be so excited for STU & STL. Is it just old pre-conceived notions of the class?

Yea... But your ITA car is actually competitive in a REAL IT Regoinal class with a TON MORE participation than Prod..... With a ruleset that isn't (that much) of a moving target to get to the front.

Just my .02 cents.

[Bill Miller]

I'll probably either race NASA PTx/Honda Challenge or assimilate and buy a Miata...

GA

Ladies and gentlemen, hell has indeed frozen over!

I just don't understand what most IT racers have against Limited Prep Prod.

Kevin,

I think a large part of that, is that it's been pretty much a moving target for the past 10 years.

Rabbit07,

As SPL matures, it will become less IT-like and more Prod-like. For example, there's a spec max cam lift, but there's nothing about profile. People will start spending many $$$ to develop cam profiles that gain them more power.

I really don't understand why they don't just put the question of IT being National out for a vote. Let the chips fall where they may.

[downingracing]

...I really don't understand why they don't just put the question of IT being National out for a vote. Let the chips fall where they may.

Because they put the question of motor mounts in IT out for a 'vote' and even with the vast majority of the letters in support - NO...

[lateapex911]

That is the single biggest crock of $#*& I have seen posted in quite a while. If there is a problem a protest is lodged and specs or stock parts located to compare to. If there are a few old listings with questionable spec cams then spec the car weight with what is being run if nothing else is available. Not that hard. Total BS.

Steve, I wish I could agree with you....well, I agree with your conclusion, but not your intro line.
Now, positions change, and people say things that they don't remember, or didn't mean, but....in my talks with the PTB regarding IT going National, (in my ITAC days) one major barrier that the PTB put up was indeed the tech issue. Any solutions or options offered were shot down. Not ALL the CRB guys didn't like the National idea, and, who knows, maybe the resistance I was hearing was "devils advocate", but, it sure sounded like the resistance was significant.

[lateapex911]

I hear you all...
Prod: Could be cool, as Kevin has certainly found out, but, as Andy points out, it's a moving target. And, it's subjective, and based sometimes on one race. I get why they do it that way, but I sure don't like it, and I've been behind the closed doors and I've seen how things work, so I'm not sure I trust it....

STx: STL seems like a neat option, but, I trip over the future. One, it's seems pretty FWD biased. And, when you really work the numbers, it is as Kirk points out all about specific output. Which really limits the choices. (Assuming you want a front line car, and uh, last I checked, this is racing, why would you NOT want to be up front?)

IT: Once stable, and circling in on a balanced category, it's in a bit of limbo. Still good though. But, Forever regional. And while some get hung up on moving their stupid battery or needing a washer bottle, I don't.


So today, IT seems like the least thorns.

[Russ Myers]

No whining??? Just like here in Improved Touring, right?

Russ

[Rabbit07]

Kevin,

I would not try to speak for others on this, but if it tried to do what you have done it couldn't work. You and I race together in ITA with our cars. You take the same model car and race it in FP. I take my car and it lands in EP? Sure it can weigh 2000 lbs or something like it that the chassis could never get to, but it still is in the next faster class. God knows I like a challenge, I race a freak'n Neon, but the cars should be in the same class in Prod as well. Letters have been sent and it has yielded nothing.

[Andy Bettencourt]

...but the cars should be in the same class in Prod as well. Letters have been sent and it has yielded nothing.

MAYBE in this case, but certainly not as a rule. Remember, displacement has a TON to do with classification in Prod. When you remove the IT restrictions and apply full or limited prep Prod allowances, gains can differ drastically.

Look at engine sizes in FP...anything bigger than the 1.8 Hondah? You go to 2.0L and you are for sure in EP based on that.

I agree that a LP Neon and an LP Teg would be a sensible pair...and as the LP rules are more accepted by the ful prep crowd, it could happen.

[Z3_GoCar]

Now EP has the S-2k, Boxter, and Rx-8 all classed with 17-18 x 8.5 rims. Meanwhile they have both the four cylinder Z3 and the 2.8 liter Z3 in the same class, oh and it's the only car that gets to run 16 inch slicks With a market of one, what the avalibility of slicks?

[Greg Amy]

After Serra got the 'Teg approved for FP I actually tried to get the NX2000 approved for FP, using relative competitiveness in ITA as supporting evidence. BRAACK! Next! Try again EProd Boy...

[Chip42]

I've always wanted to know how the Del Sol VTEC (B16) which is in ITS, and the Del sol Si (D16Z6) is in ITA, but the SOHC car is a prep 1 car in EP, and the DOHC is prep 2 + dry sump in FP. and not at stupid weight either.

compared to a FP miater - more power, roughly equal aero (frontal Area and Cd) with windshield cut off, parts are cheap and available, slightly heavier, twitchy.

if we had the money, we'd have one of these already.

as for the honda weight adjustments, they were needed to balance the field and remove a potentially destabilizing precedent in the 2-motor line for the Del Sol Si, my thanks to the ITAC for getting them done. I do wonder if a del sol Si can get down to 2270, though (I have no real info either way but I have a hunch it's a bit heavier).

[shwah]

Take the Sargis car that was a monster at the Runoffs. That is a full prep, hand-grenade-powered rocket. You guys either got out-driven or that car needs to be brought back down to earth.

OR he has likely the most developed cars in SCCA road racing and is racing at his home track, where he has proven to be a bit of a jedi master.

I agree that he will get a lead trophy, but I don't agree that it will necessarily be 100%s deserved. It's not like the HP Honda that still runs at the front while it stumbles out of every low speed corner carrying 275 more pounds than last year.

Your point remains valid. Production car specifications can and do change from year to year. We are still struggling to get Chuck's car back to the level of competitiveness it was in G. At least we now know what works for the new configuration, but budget and time constraints are a bitch and we merely hope to be able to execute it by next September...

[Andy Bettencourt]

I agree that he will get a lead trophy, but I don't agree that it will necessarily be 100%s deserved. ...

And therin lies the problem...determining when it is deserved and by how much, if at all.

[gpeluso]

where do the 12a and 13b rotaries fit in ST (STU or STL)? I'm speaking of the ITA/IT7 and ITS cars?

Greg

[Bill Miller]

where do the 12a and 13b rotaries fit in ST (STU or STL)? I'm speaking of the ITA/IT7 and ITS cars?

Greg

I'm not sure if the 12a fits anywhere. Did Mazda have any '85 RX7's w/ a 12a motor?

[JeffYoung]

Yes. Only the GSL-SE had the 13b. All GSLs and GSs had the 12a in 84 and 85.

[Rabbit07]

where do the 12a and 13b rotaries fit in ST (STU or STL)? I'm speaking of the ITA/IT7 and ITS cars?

Greg

The Mazda 13B and Renesis rotary engines are permitted at 2400lbs. The 13B may be street ported. The Renesis shall remain unported. The Mazda 12A Street Port is permitted at 2350lbs.12A induction: (1) Nikki 4 barrel carburetor with primary choke(s) bored to match secondary choke(s) on a stock manifold, or (1) Auto-type 2 barrel carburetor with 38mm choke(s) on a “dual-y” manifold.

[mossaidis]

1.I've always wanted to know how the Del Sol VTEC (B16) which is in ITS, and the Del sol Si (D16Z6) is in ITA, but the SOHC car is a prep 1 car in EP, and the DOHC is prep 2 + dry sump in FP. and not at stupid weight either.
...
as for the honda weight adjustments, they were needed to balance the field and remove a potentially destabilizing precedent in the 2-motor line for the Del Sol Si, my thanks to the ITAC for getting them done. I do wonder if a del sol Si can get down to 2270, though (I have no real info either way but I have a hunch it's a bit heavier).

on your first part, "wow!" I need to pay for attention to the prod rules... what a cluster X. Well, I guess it's "their" problem to sort out, but still... ugh.

on your last comment, ditto! FYI, I can get my 92 Civic si down to 2270 with 195 lbs driver, a small fire bottle and a filled washer bottle and w/o ballast or the spare tire.

[Ed Funk]

....empty your damn washer bottle! The del sol has a lot of steel in the tunnel...still doesn't help with the flexibility problem in the street car.

[JamesL]

Why I like STL:

- Fixed cam lift limit
- Fixed compression limit
- IT head prep
- No dry sumps
- GSR gear ratios
- DOT radials
- No relocated pickup points
- Lexan
- Fiberglass hood and hatch
- Ability to pretty much remove every single thing in the car that is not there to solely make the car go faster or protect my ass.
- But not nearly the modification allowances required in Prod to be competitive.

I understand that you mentioned you may be more interested if ALL the cars in Prod were LP... but you do realize that you just described Limited Prep Prod to a tee, except for DOTs, right??

While Sargis is a bit of an enigma, LP cars won E and F this year... and while some of the full prep cars may need to be reigned in slightly(or have the reigns loosened slightly), depending on the track, LP seems to be the future of SCCA Production.

And in another 10 years, it wouldn't surpise me if almost all the cars running Prod are LP.