November Fastrack

[Knestis]

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Someone

[Andy Bettencourt]

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Someone

LOL. lost it's effectiveness with the page change. Maybe when they get it straight, they will have room for some former members again.

[gran racing]

I realize that's how they're attempting to rationalize the changes, however based on the previous stance it yields a confusing appearance. Oh well.

[tom91ita]

Some just had to fall on the sword.

nothing but a flesh wound!

[tom91ita]

I realize that's how they're attempting to rationalize the changes, however based on the previous stance it yields a confusing appearance. Oh well.

this was my first thought.

thanks Andy for the clariifcation. i had been thinking there were other hondas in the line....

[shwah]

I respect your point however this is not really IT racing going national. STL is a bit higher prep level than IT and STU is even higher. I look at these classes as a great place to go if you are tired of IT.

I don't know that I have heard much of "I'm tired of racing IT" from pretty much anyone. I have heard "I want to race national, but don't want to race Production" (though I personally wouldn't mind that path), and "I want to race national, and I'm sorry I have to leave IT to do that" though.

Seems to me that this is a place we are going because the folks driving it are tired of trying to go national racing in IT. If you call it something different, and change it some, its not IT, and it can be national. Just a way more difficult an convoluted path that will require developing an entire base of racers to get there.

[gran racing]

At the same time Chris, there are pros and cons of IT going national and it would have an impact on the category that can be debated for the better or worse.

[Knestis]

... Seems to me that this is a place we are going because the folks driving it are tired of trying to go national racing in IT. If you call it something different, and change it some, its not IT, and it can be national. Just a way more difficult an convoluted path that will require developing an entire base of racers to get there.

Sorry, Chris - I think you're missing most of the plot line.

IT drivers were thrown a bone to be allowed to play - not compete - in a category created by a few folks who have an interest in WCT and GT cars. That begat STL. That this idea is attracting IT drivers is coincidental - not intentional.

Again - when nobody has the foresight or stones to make a failed class go away, or suffer the selfish arguments of small-pond big fish, we get class proliferation, dilution, and a weak Club Racing program.

K

[Greg Amy]

I don't know that I have heard much of "I'm tired of racing IT" from pretty much anyone.

<waving...>

No offense to anyone, but that's why I'm in STL/U. I'm not going to rehash the gory details, but I can tell you that the exact moment I told Kessler we were running STU this year he walked up to the car, calmly lifted the hood, removed the washer bottle and hurled it across the shop into the back wall and it dropped down to the floor...

...where it still lies today.

This - along with some other "let's not go there again" arguments - led me to consciously choose to take the Integra into Super Touring. Being National was icing on the cake (if IT were suddenly made National today, I'd still race STx.)

And I have zero interest in Production.

I've got nothing to add to Knestis' post, though I am aware of a few folk that intend STL to be a back-door National entry for IT, rather than coincidental. But that's individual motivations, not the Club's as a whole. And I recognize that whole "no new class" issue, which is why I'm disappointed, but I understand, that STL is not National. But, in the end, if I'm right and the class proves to be popular then it's nearly a foregone conclusion that it will be National eventually. If I'm wrong and I'm racing myself, I'll probably either race NASA PTx/Honda Challenge or assimilate and buy a Miata...

GA

[Rabbit07]

So the obvious, easy solution is to create a completely new class, rather than remove three words from the GCR...

Not true. Tech is the major issue in regards to IT going national. You tell me what the camshaft profile is suppose to be a on Volvo 142e? circa 1968.

With STL we provide a maximum cam lift, a maximimum Compression ratiom, etc.

This along with the "Washer Bottle" removes the ambiguity in tech.

[Rabbit07]

<waving...>

If I'm wrong and I'm racing myself, I'll probably either race NASA PTx/Honda Challenge or assimilate and buy a Miata...

GA

You won't be alone, but you may have to race with a bunch of Dodges .

[shwah]

Not true. Tech is the major issue in regards to IT going national. You tell me what the camshaft profile is suppose to be a on Volvo 142e? circa 1968.

With STL we provide a maximum cam lift, a maximimum Compression ratiom, etc.

This along with the "Washer Bottle" removes the ambiguity in tech.

You tell me what the stock wheel opening profile is for an Elva Courier. This is a red herring argument.

I understand that the point I am trying to make is tangential to the subject. I'll drop it now, but I couldn't help but take notice that we are going the 'other way around the world' to get to a destination - at least in the eyes of many, including some driving the class creation.

[seckerich]

Not true. Tech is the major issue in regards to IT going national. You tell me what the camshaft profile is suppose to be a on Volvo 142e? circa 1968.

With STL we provide a maximum cam lift, a maximimum Compression ratiom, etc.

This along with the "Washer Bottle" removes the ambiguity in tech.

That is the single biggest crock of $#*& I have seen posted in quite a while. If there is a problem a protest is lodged and specs or stock parts located to compare to. If there are a few old listings with questionable spec cams then spec the car weight with what is being run if nothing else is available. Not that hard. Total BS.

[Rabbit07]

That is the single biggest crock of $#*& I have seen posted in quite a while.

If there is a problem a protest is lodged and specs or stock parts located to compare to.

If there are a few old listings with questionable spec cams then spec the car weight with what is being run if nothing else is available. Not that hard. Total BS.

So there in lies the issue, 'Stock Parts" whos, stock parts? The older cars are harder to police, and that is as I understand it, one reason why IT would struggle to go National

Spec the car? This is IT w/out competition adjustments. Are we excepting that we would adjust cars with competition adjustments if it were National?

It is hard, because we are talking about post race tear downs at the RunOffs, where all decisions are final. There is no time to gather stock parts, old spec etc.

[rsportvolvo]

IF SCCA performed a proper homologation of each car and logged them, dare I say like the FIA, then many of these "spec" issues dry up. The entire approach to how SCCA runs their "show" needs to be revised.

[Knestis]

Not true. Tech is the major issue in regards to IT going national. You tell me what the camshaft profile is suppose to be a on Volvo 142e? circa 1968.

With STL we provide a maximum cam lift, a maximimum Compression ratiom, etc.

This along with the "Washer Bottle" removes the ambiguity in tech.

Yeah, sorry - I'm not buying this either. It is NOT possible to write self-policing rules. Cite a standard cam lift as the Easy Button for STL but you've still got hundreds of other similar problem unresolved. And as Chris points out, neither obscurity nor age are limiting factors in many other National classes.

If one thinks STL is a cool idea, all he has to say is, "I like it!" Don't trot out specious arguments in an effort to make it sound like a solution to a non-existent problem inherent in the IT rules.

And if you DO want to start arguing values and priorities, how about the reality that a formula where weights are based on displacement and cams/compression are fixed, cars that don't realize good specific HP figures are pretty much doomed...? If (when?) it gets truly competitive, there just won't be very many cars that can run up front, presuming equal preparation. Spec K20 anyone?

I'm NOT suggesting that STL is just bad. (Count me among the "intrigued.") I'm just saying that there are bigger issues that trump "cool." If it's a better mousetrap than, say, a particular Prod class, it should REPLACE it.

K

EDIT - And there's exactly ZERO room for "ambiguity" re: washer bottles. It's binary, dude - they're either there or not there. If you think that "real race cars don't have washer bottles," that's fine but again, don't make it sound like making that rule go away is solving some great quandary for the Club.

[R2 Racing]

I just don't understand what most IT racers have against Limited Prep Prod. I absolutely love it. I took the chassis I drove and knew in IT, added high lift cams and high compression pistons, GSR gear ratios, slicks, lexan, a fiberglass hood, and removed every single thing in the car that is not there to solely make the car go faster or protect my ass. It is just as reliable as my IT car, it is easier to work on and maintain, it's 305lbs lighter, and has ~25% more horsepower. And the best part? It's actually competitive in a REAL National class with lots of participation!

I just fail to understand why someone would have zero interest in that, yet be so excited for STU & STL. Is it just old pre-conceived notions of the class?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I just don't understand what most IT racers have against Limited Prep Prod. I absolutely love it. I took the chassis I drove and knew in IT, added high lift cams and high compression pistons, GSR gear ratios, slicks, lexan, a fiberglass hood, and removed every single thing in the car that is not there to solely make the car go faster or protect my ass. It is just as reliable as my IT car, it is easier to work on and maintain, it's 305lbs lighter, and has ~25% more horsepower. And the best part? It's actually competitive in a REAL National class with lots of participation!

I just fail to understand why someone would have zero interest in that, yet be so excited for STU & STL. Is it just old pre-conceived notions of the class?

Good question Mr. Ruck. To me, the way cars are classed is the high spot for STU/STL. It is what it is. Comp adjustments every year trying to make everything equal? Doubt it. THAT is the issue for me.

Take the Sargis car that was a monster at the Runoffs. That is a full prep, hand-grenade-powered rocket. You guys either got out-driven or that car needs to be brought back down to earth. He must have thousands of dollars and hours making it fast. Now they will handicap it to the point that it won't win. The Patton Sunbeam is a great example. A win in GT2 and then enough of a limitation to set him back 5 years. It's a tough pill to swallow.

[Greg Amy]

I just fail to understand why someone would have zero interest in that, yet be so excited for STU & STL.

I have ZERO interest in Prod. Some examples why (and I admit I don't know the rules intimately, assuming anyone possibly can):

- High lift cams and high compression pistons
- Sequential shift boxes...?
- Slicks
- Repositioned pickup points
- Flared/shaved/stretched body panels
- High lift cams and high compression engines
- Dry sumps
- Shitloads of other engine and drivetrain mods
- And/or you're competing against (read: spending money against) guys that can do all that.

And the biggie:

- You're racing against cars that were considered old even back when your dad and mom were getting frisky, each with its own unique and oddball rules allowances, hand-grenade engines, and drivers older than even me. Or Miatas.

Production is the *ultimate* in catch-all run-whatcha-brung, with a wierd-ass ruleset to try and make some semblence of parity among the whole pack. And it really doesn't work. If it was *only* Limited Prep cars out there, and the cars I'd be competing against were interesting instead of two half-spins away from the crusher (or vintage racing), then maybe. But it's not, so...not interested.

Why I like STL:

- Fixed cam lift limit
- Fixed compression limit
- IT head prep
- No dry sumps
- GSR gear ratios
- DOT radials
- No relocated pickup points
- Lexan
- Fiberglass hood and hatch
- Ability to pretty much remove every single thing in the car that is not there to solely make the car go faster or protect my ass.
- But not nearly the modification allowances required in Prod to be competitive.
- Interesting more-modern competition? There's no way a Spitfire or a Fiat or Datsun or a MGB will ever be competitive in this class. So they'll stay in Prod. Except Miatas.
- The rules are out there, you make your choices, warts and all. NO WHINING!!!

Time will tell on the "real National class" participation thing...

To each his own, Kev; I'm not making value judgments on your choices/preferences. But Prod just doesn't do it for me at all.

GA

[Rabbit07]

If one thinks STL is a cool idea, all he has to say is, "I like it!" Don't trot out specious arguments in an effort to make it sound like a solution to a non-existent problem inherent in the IT rules.

Spec K20 anyone?

I am not buying the "non existent problem" part of IT either.

Don't bet on the K20 yet, that is on the radar as well.