November Fastrack

[pitbull113]

I think that's the ST *class*, not the ST category (STO/STU/STL). ST is a little-known class in the Touring category for cars too fast for T1 (super-expensive supercars, basically). Just another recent failed new class experiment.

Okay thanks for the clarification.

[Greg Amy]

I think that's the ST *class*, not the ST category (STO/STU/STL).

Correct. That's a class I didn't even know existed until I saw it on the Runoffs schedule!!!

STO (over 3 liters) and STU (3 liters and under) will still be National classes in 2011; STL (2.0 liters and below; see August Fastrack) will be introduced in 2011 as a new Regional class.

GA

[tom91ita]

........How did all the Honda adjustments come to be? What's the internal policy about actually changing existing weights?

did some Hondas jump to the head of the line?

[lateapex911]

I think that's the ST *class*, not the ST category (STO/STU/STL). ST is a little-known class in the Touring category for cars too fast for T1 (super-expensive supercars, basically). Just another recent failed new class experiment.

Right, so ST was Sooper Touring, then it was T1, 2, 3 etc....
Then SSB, C, etc. right? With the prep rules in Touring being slightly more open then SS....

[pitbull113]

Correct. That's a class I didn't even know existed until I saw it on the Runoffs schedule!!!

STO (over 3 liters) and STU (3 liters and under) will still be National classes in 2011; STL (2.0 liters and below; see August Fastrack) will be introduced in 2011 as a new Regional class.

GA

I didn't realize STL was regional only. I guess I still don't get to go to the runoffs

[Greg Amy]

I didn't realize STL was regional only. I guess I still don't get to go to the runoffs

It never "was" National, Steve; it's a new class for 2011. Are you maybe thinking about STU? STU will retain its National status in 2011 (it was the 10th most-entered National class in 2010). There was a short handful of us that ran Nationals and the Runoffs in 2010 in STU, though we got our asses handed to us by full-up World Challenge cars...

If you build a car to STL rules, you can run Regionals as STL and/or STU, and the car would be legal (but not competitive) to run Nationals and qualify for the Runoffs in STU. That is my plan for 2011 (though I will likely not go to the Runoffs.) I know that Kolin Aspergren is planning to run Nationals-Only in the southeast with his ITA Neon...

GA

[dickita15]

STL comes in as a regional class. A regional class can become a notional class based on criteria C below. Many expect that STL will have a big leg up on making the numbers because I addition to people building cars for the class Miatas and IT cars can use the class for double dipping. STL cars can also run in STU at nationals until this happens.

9.1.12. NATIONAL CLASS PARTICIPATION REQUIREMENTS
A. A class retains its National status as long as its annual average
number of entries achieves 2.5 or higher per National event.
B. Should that annual average number of entries fall below 2.5, the
class will have one additional year to bring the participation level
above the current requirement. Alternatively, it may be immediately
consolidated into an existing class. If the class does not exceed the
current average requirement during the grace year, it will either be
consolidated into existing classes or become a Regional Class.
C. Based on member input, a Regional Class (except Improved Touring)
meeting or exceeding the participation requirements outlined in
paragraph 9.1.12.A. for 1 year may be reviewed to become a
National Class.
D. Based on member or manufacturer input, the CRB may recommend
creating new National classes for BoD approval. National classes
created under this section have 5 years to achieve an average of
2.5 cars per National event before being consolidated or redefined
as a Regional Class, according to 9.1.12.B.

[pitbull113]

It never "was" National, Steve; it's a new class for 2011. Are you maybe thinking about STU? STU will retain its National status in 2011 (it was the 10th most-entered National class in 2010). There was a short handful of us that ran Nationals and the Runoffs in 2010 in STU, though we got our asses handed to us by full-up World Challenge cars...

If you build a car to STL rules, you can run Regionals as STL and/or STU, and the car would be legal (but not competitive) to run Nationals and qualify for the Runoffs in STU. That is my plan for 2011 (though I will likely not go to the Runoffs.) I know that Kolin Aspergren is planning to run Nationals-Only in the southeast with his ITA Neon...

GA

I read the fastrack about the addition of STL but missed the part about regional. I guess I just assumed it would be national like STO/STU.

[Greg Amy]

I read the fastrack about the addition of STL but missed the part about regional. I guess I just assumed it would be national like STO/STU.

Well, that was the original intention when it was proposed. However, the Club is going through a lot of strife right now about how to handle "legacy" classes and categories that aren't making their numbers; general competitor sentiment at the CRB town hall meetings at the Runoffs made it clear that the club is not ready for any new classes.

The problem is that while everyone wants all the lesser-participated classes to go away, they want "their" class waived (of course). So you get all these folks arguing back and forth (while the Spec Miata and SRF guys just smile and wave... ). So the BoD decided to bring STL in Regional-only, and it will be up to us, the competitors, to prove that it will be a viable class. Once we demonstrate that STL can bring in the required numbers (see Dick's post, above) then we can request it be considered for National status. As Dick noted, I have all confidence that we'll easily hit that target this coming season.

GA

[pitbull113]

Yes with IT and SM guys double dipping in STL the class will be popular.

[Knestis]

9.1.12. NATIONAL CLASS PARTICIPATION REQUIREMENTS
A. A class retains its National status as long as its annual average
number of entries achieves 2.5 or higher per National event.
B. Should that annual average number of entries fall below 2.5, the
class will have one additional year to bring the participation level
above the current requirement. Alternatively, it may be immediately
consolidated into an existing class. If the class does not exceed the
current average requirement during the grace year, it will either be
consolidated into existing classes or become a Regional Class.
C. Based on member input, a Regional Class (except Improved Touring)
meeting or exceeding the participation requirements outlined in
paragraph 9.1.12.A. for 1 year may be reviewed to become a
National Class.
D. Based on member or manufacturer input, the CRB may recommend
creating new National classes for BoD approval. National classes
created under this section have 5 years to achieve an average of
2.5 cars per National event before being consolidated or redefined
as a Regional Class, according to 9.1.12.B. All classes are eligible for
divisional and regional championships, as determined by those bodies.
The [however many] most highly subscribed classes in any year will be
eligible for the RunOffs the following year.

Problem. Solved.

K

[tom91ita]

is there a stated goal or strategy with regards to adding STL?

is it to increase fees due to double dippers?

is it make a good home to attract drivers back from NASA?

is it to increase car count by more people building cars?

it seems that most classing is a zero sum game except for the double dippers. that is, having a driver build or enter STL instead of ITA or ITS does not increase overall membership or entries.

mostly just curious.

[Greg Amy]

Problem. Solved.

And therein lies the problem, Prof (and you know this): everybody in the club agrees with that philosophy...right up to the moment it detrimentally affects them.

To do something like this would require resolve and leadership that we - collectively - are not willing to support. So we go through these arguments time and time again...

GA

On edit: For reference, National Class Participation numbers for 2010.

[dickita15]

is there a stated goal or strategy with regards to adding STL?

is it to increase fees due to double dippers?

is it make a good home to attract drivers back from NASA?

is it to increase car count by more people building cars?

it seems that most classing is a zero sum game except for the double dippers. that is, having a driver build or enter STL instead of ITA or ITS does not increase overall membership or entries.

mostly just curious.

Yes
No, but it will happen
Yes
Yes

I think there are racers who are in SM or IT who are ready to move on to something else. To many of these the culture and rule set in Production may not be so popular.

STO, U & L is designed with the people in mind. The fact that is may be attractive to some current Nasa racers is not a bad this either.

STO is probably what GT2 or 3 should have evolved into.
STU and L may be what Production should have become.

[Knestis]

And therein lies the problem, Prof (and you know this): everybody in the club agrees with that philosophy...right up to the moment it detrimentally affects them.

To do something like this would require resolve and leadership that we - collectively - are not willing to support. So we go through these arguments time and time again...

GA

On edit: For reference, National Class Participation numbers for 2010.

That's what happens when jellyfish are in charge.

K

[shwah]

A regional class can become a notional class based on criteria C below. <snip>

C. Based on member input, a Regional Class (except Improved Touring)
meeting or exceeding the participation requirements outlined in
paragraph 9.1.12.A. for 1 year may be reviewed to become a
National Class.

I think there are racers who are in SM or IT who are ready to move on to something else. To many of these the culture and rule set in Production may not be so popular.

So the obvious, easy solution is to create a completely new class, rather than remove three words from the GCR...

[dickita15]

I respect your point however this is not really IT racing going national. STL is a bit higher prep level than IT and STU is even higher. I look at these classes as a great place to go if you are tired of IT.

[JLawton]

I look at these classes as a great place to go if you are tired of IT.

I thought that was supposed to be Production?

[gran racing]

........How did all the Honda adjustments come to be? What's the internal policy about actually changing existing weights?

I recognize the changes are being done with good intention but once again I fail to understand how these and some of the past adjustments are being allowed? Hopefully when the BOD reviews the rule to allow other classed cars to be reviewed it'll resolve this ever confusing lack of consistency. I do find it quite puzzling among other words.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I recognize the changes are being done with good intention but once again I fail to understand how these and some of the past adjustments are being allowed? Hopefully when the BOD reviews the rule to allow other classed cars to be reviewed it'll resolve this ever confusing lack of consistency. I do find it quite puzzling among other words.

It's not really hard to comprehend IMHO. The CRB is on (at least was on) a 'if it looks like a duck' kick. These are changes that are probably being made under errors and ommisions. Making the classifications 'make sense'. Same engine, different chassis (assuming no core design is different like suspension design or driveline, etc) then teh weight should be the same given the grainularity with have in IT. It's a correction based on clear data.

What they aren't allowing yet is a re-do of cars using the process. The CRB doesn't (didn't when I was there) believe in it enough to allow it. We been through it a million times. Th etime will come when they do it I am sure, but not when I was Chair and not in the next month or so, but I bet it will get done. The sh!t storm that played out last year opened enough eyes to allow this to happen. Some just had to fall on the sword.