In the market for a new race car

[JLawton]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here..........

Bill's got a car that needs a lot of development. It needs a new engine, it needs a suspension and it sounds like it needs some frame work. Add up those costs. All that money in a car that may not ever be competative.

Sometimes you need to cut bait.

We always say, "Buy, buy, buy, don't build!!". Even though Bill is not a newbie and knows what he's getting into, he is almost starting from scratch.

Chris's car seems like a deal. I don't think you can buy a faster car for the money. Everyone knows that Chris doesn't do things half assed. (Chris, you can send me 10% of the sale price once it's sold! ) AND, you've got a car that's ready to race tomorrow. No assembly needed.

This is a tough decision Bill. I think we've all been there at one time or another so we feel for ya! Hang in there and good luck!!

[joeg]

Bill--Did you ever put that car on a Chassis Dyno to tune it??

[RacerBill]

Bill--Did you ever put that car on a Chassis Dyno to tune it??

I had all the best intentions of doing that, but time got away from me (I swear that I had more time to do things before I retired!). But I will put away the time and money to do that as soon as I get running again.

[steve b]

My ITB '83 GTI is for sale $2k takes it.

I'm NOT in the market for a racecar and that sounds like a good deal. Jump on it.

If in fact you are a glutton for punishment... I think I know where an MR2 can be had for about $3K.

[RedMisted]

Depends on the car but the classification process assumes around 25% gain.

Wow. I thought the expected bump might be around 15%. Better get that race motor built!

[CRallo]

Wow. I thought the expected bump might be around 15%. Better get that race motor built!

25% is the total gain that IS expected from a TYPICAL full IT engine build, but this includes all the external bolt-ons including exhaust, intake, computer/tuning, etc. A portion of this I assume you already have done...

[fornetti14]

You don't know how hard I am thinking about it!!!!!

What times did it run at Mid-Ohio?

Never ran Mid-Ohio with it. Just test and tunes at Gingerman the last 3 years.

Car dyno'd at 83 hp at the wheels.

[RedMisted]

25% is the total gain that IS expected from a TYPICAL full IT engine build, but this includes all the external bolt-ons including exhaust, intake, computer/tuning, etc. A portion of this I assume you already have done...

Well, I've done all the peripherals and given theoretical 15% driveline losses, I should top out at 203hp at the wheels. I'm already at 195 or so horsepower... Does this mean that if I have the motor itself optimized for performance I'll only gain 8 more hp?

[lateapex911]

Well, I've done all the peripherals and given theoretical 15% driveline losses, I should top out at 203hp at the wheels. I'm already at 195 or so horsepower... Does this mean that if I have the motor itself optimized for performance I'll only gain 8 more hp?

Maybe. Maybe less. Maybe more. Your car might be an overachiever. The Process is a big picture view, but each individual car has no guarantee of hitting exactly 25%..

There are a myriad of tricks and details that yield HP at the rear wheels. Some cars respond well to some of them. Some cars respond very well to a balance and blueprint, others, not so much. Sniff around and see what the experts on your engine have to say.

But, just off the top of my head, folks have done things like this to chase 'full build" power.

• Test multiple heads to find the stock examples that flow best.
• Test Multiple intakes to..." " " ".
• Buy buckets of stock pistons to find the lightest and balance to that.
• buy Buckets of XXX part, to find the lightest and ..." " " ".
• Build may headers looking for the best toque curve and Hp.
• Build extravagant cold air boxes to pull the most volume of the coldest air.
• Tweak engine oil pumps for proper pressures.
• Install crank scrapers.
• Spend days dyno tuning with the ECU to build the best fuel/timing curves.
• Tweak fuel pressures and control fuel temps.
• Reduce rotating masses wherever possible.
• Improve cooling and flow efficiency.
• Flow bench all porting mods.
• Reduce driveline rotating mass.
• Reduce internal engine drag.

And on and on....that's just off the top of my head...and a good engine builder has a far far better list. (But, he keeps his mouth shut, no doubt)

[gran racing]

25% is the total gain that IS expected from a TYPICAL full IT engine build,

Ohhh! Thanks for clarifying that. Yeah, not 25% from just the build - sorry about that. For my particular car, those extra bolt ons helped but it was the engine build portion that really brought it all together and is when I saw the gains. My engine saw about 12 hp gain, more in torque which to me is huge especially when talking at the wheels. Like Jake said, every engine will respond differently. Maybe your engine responds well to the simple improvements like a good header, exhaust, and intake?

[RedMisted]

Thanks Dave and Jake for the replies.
I've been all around the car but the engine is basically virgin territory for me. A problem with my car is that nobody else that anyone knows of is road racing a 3.8 liter V6 Mustang. Now, while there are drag race engine builders out there who may have constructed a few of these motors for the quarter-mile, I'd doubt that I'd use their help. I'd hate to be the guinea pig here for anybody else that is thinking of building a car like mine, but I guess that's the price of being an oddball...

[gran racing]

Time for you to do some research. Speak with people are familiar with your Mustang. American Sedan drivers? NASA? GrandAm? Call a few shops up to see what types of gains they'd estimate. You should be able to get a general feel for things.

[shwah]

My machine shop AMT Racing Engines does mostly drag stuff. They have done a decent job for me, Mathis and Albin over the years. In my case they did all the machine work and Chuck did the building.

Don't be so quick to discount those types of shops, just make sure they know what you are trying to accomplish and what the restrictions of the class are.

[ShelbyRacer]

The Swift is a nice deal but not what several consider easy to drive. Not so sure that's the car for Bill.

One could say the same about his current car. While I would not consider my car to be 100% developed, it's pretty darn close. It is most certainly a task to drive, and at times can be downright scary.

At the same time, I can tell you that we could probably get Bill's car significantly faster for less money than swtiching to a new car, and make it not so much of a "ragged edge" car.

I always recommend the buy-vs.-build for newer drivers, but I'm not sure in this case that it would be the best way to go. In the price range you're looking at, Bill, you might be buying someone else's problem, or something that'll take more work then yours to make reliable. I don't know the cars in question, so please don't anyone take that as a cut on their car that may be for sale.

[RacerBill]

Matt: Thanks for the note. You are right - the devil that you know is more likely to be better than the devil you don't know! I have plenty of time to get something together for next year, so I think this will be my plan of attack:

1) I have the engine that came out of the car at the end of last season, at minimum I know I will have to replace the head gasket which is a job that I know that I can do. So I think that I will tackle that and see if the block or head have to be decked. That will get me to where I was maybe two years ago, but at least with a reliable car.

2) Disassemble the new engine and see exactly what went wrong. If the head/valves were not damaged then they could go on the old block, which would then be an improvement there.

At least that would give me a car that would be a turn-key if I decide to go out and purchase a different car.

At this point I would need to decide to keep or sell.

If I keep, then I think that the next step would be to upgrade the entire suspension with camber plates, coil-overs, and shocks.

BTW, Matt - I don't remember, does your Shelby have a bar between the front shock towers?

If I decide to switch, then I can start looking seriously at options. Right now there doesn't seem to be too much out there.

Thanks again to all for all the great input. I value your ideas and am taking all of them into consideration.

[rcc85]

Someone once said "The cheapest race car is the one you already own".

Bill, did you say that the engine went flat and it was smoking?

If it just went flat that could mean that the timing belt jumped a tooth, not unusual on the 2.2, but that wouldn't cause it to smoke. You might want to make sure the timing marks are aligned on the cam, crank and auxiliary shaft sprockets. I can check the cam/crank/auxiliary shaft timing with the engine in the car on the Daytona. I know the engine compartment is tighter on the Charger so that may not be easy.

If it's missing, you could have broken a lash adjuster (lifter) or displaced a cam follower (rocker arm). I've had both of the happen and it's a pretty easy fix. You might want to pull the valve cover and look.

If it's smoking badly, though, that's never good. It could be a broken ring (damaged during assembly), or a broken valve. You might get lucky. I broke a rod on a 2.2 once due to a spun bearing and didn't damage the block or the head. Ruined the crank, though.

Bob Clifton
#05 ITB Dodge Daytona

[RacerBill]

Bob: Thanks for the note. I will check the timing on Thursday when I can bring the car back to the garage. Witnesses said that there was a bunch of smoke from the tailpipe. Examination of the plugs revealed lots of oil on plugs 1 & 2, oil and a piece of foreign matter (looked like gasket material or gasket sealer). Plug 4 could not be removed.

Thanks.

[rcc85]

Bill, if the #4 plug won't come out, I'm pretty sure the piston has smashed a valve into it. Been there, done that. It's not pretty. Sorry.

Bob Clifton
#05 ITB Dodge Daytona

[RacerBill]

Bob: Well, pulling the head will tell the tale. It's hard to believe that this would happen with only about 5 hours on the engine. However, the track record for the engine builder (not me) with this engine is VERY suspect.

[924Guy]

My take on that bit of debris on the plug, I still stand by it being RTV. Doesn't belong in there though...

Seems like the engine repair should pretty much be free at this point...

Which means time to focus on getting that suspension replaced. You're not going to learn anything or get any faster till you can keep all 4 close to the ground; time for springs and shocks. Regardless of what engine goes in that car; I'd probably have a tough time breaking a 1:58 down there in that car...

So if you're going to expend any time/effort on doing anything more than just getting it to run again (to sell), you really need to have a serious plan to completely overhaul the suspension. Not by halves.