Do FIA-homolagated seats expire in the eyes of the SCCA?

[JoshS]

My seat, a Sparco Circuit with a 2005 date on it, is homologated to FIA 8855-1999. I do not use a seat back brace and I use Sparco side mounts bolted directly to the original chassis seat mounts with the use of an adapter.

I can't find anything in the GCR that says that this seat will ever need to be retired due to age. And it looks from the latest round of seat mounting rule changes proposed in the August Fastrack, the only changes will be that the mounting of my seat has to be done the way the homologation was done, and in most cases, sliders won't be allowed -- i.e., I still won't be forced to add a seat back brace, and my rigidly mounted side mounts will still be fine.

Am I missing something or am I good until the rules change again? There was some scuttlebutt in the paddock at this weekend about how the club was going to crack down on expired seats, but I can't find any rule that indicates that seats ever expire ...

EDIT: FIA 8855-1999 says that "The usable life of an FIA homologated seat will be 5 years from the date of manufacture indicated on the seat label." So did I just answer my own question? My mounting is fine but my seat is now too old to be homologated?

[quadzjr]

I have yet to look at the sept fastrack but was there any word about the letter written in about the seat mounting rules? I wouldn't worry about date as much, but we will see. as for seat mounting as it is mentioned in the august fastrack it depends on if your seat is 8855-1999 No.12 or No.40 If it is No. 12 they only specify a "type" of seat bracket. If it is No.40 it is specified with a seat bracket with part number x.

[mc-integra111]

My interpretation of the FIA homologation seat rule is that once the time has elapsed (5 years as you state), technically that seat is not FIA approved anymore. However, there is nothing in the GCR about how old a seat can be, so the only thing the FIA homologation was doing was waiving the need for a back brace. Without the FIA homologation, the seat is still legal, it just now requires a back brace.

[Chip42]

Josh- the seats SHOULD be replaced in accordance with the homologation, otherwise we are borrowing piecemeal. it's yet another unfortunate cost burden we must endure in order to go racin'.

that said, the current standard is NO, if the seat has an FIA homologation, you can run it mounted however you want for however long you want. some techs might argue this, and frankly they would be right, but the GCR disagrees.

There were no updates on the seat mounting rules in this past fastrack. This is a real bone of contention for me, and I have written what I feeel is a very involved letter regarding same. in short - the mounting is unregulated, expirations are not enforced, and impacts that might have affected the integrity of the seat are not recorded or accounted for. So obviously, the solution to human damages caused by the above is to force the installation of a structure and design-defeating back brace. this will end up hurting more people than it helps if it goes through. so I propposed that the seat mounting be controlled and enforced in an equitable and affordable way that is generic engouh to apply accross the spectrum of chassis used in the club.

FYI - as Steve said there are now 2 seat standards at FIA: 8855-1999 (technical list 12)and 8862-2009 (list 40). those on list 12 do not list anything other than the style of mount used in homologation (no material, dimensions, or part numbers). those in list 40 (I think 8 seats currently) specify the mount PN, and might require a specific back brace as well. becasue of the limited data available in FIA technical list 12, the seats conforming to 8855-1999 will NEVER meet the rule as poposed in the 8/10 fastrack, and will ALWAYS require a back brace. this is very, very stupid and potentially very dangerous.

[rsportvolvo]

Shameless plug. It sounds like the right time to get a Racetech. The Viper seat was the test mule for the new FIA seat spec and it is the only composite seat I found that is designed for a seat back mount. The Racetech Viper seats have you covered. That is basically why I bought one.

[Chip42]

in case anyone is interested, this is what I submitted (letter 2457, reviewed by GCR committee and sent to BoD)


Proposed rule, August 2010 Fastrack:

In 9.3.41, first paragraph, replace “Seat supports shall be of the type listed on FIA technical list No.12 (lateral, bottom,
etc).” with “Seat supports shall be of the type listed on FIA technical list No. 12 or No. 40 (lateral, lower, floor, back, etc) .In accordance with the FIA standards, the seat supports (brackets) must be those used when the seat was tested for homologation. Unless supporting evidence is provided by the manufacturer of a series produced car that shows FIA safety cage testing for homologation included an adjustable seat mount, seats and their supports must be attached to a fixed mounting structure.”

I recommend changing the language above to reflect that seats conforming to FIA standard 8855-1999, as listed in technical listing No. 12, are homologated with only the ”type” of bracket intended (8855-1999, 1.2) and NOT a specific seat mount part number. Technical list No. 40 specifies part numbers for the mount(s) used as they are homologated with the seat. Per 8862-2009, section 4.8 Seat-Brackets: “The seat brackets shall be considered part of the seat and shall share the seat homologation number.” This is a distinction that I think should be noted in the GCR as it has been misunderstood by many. It should be noted that the mounting of an 8855-1999 seat is subject to some level of official approval of fitness – I suggest this be by the scrutineer performing the annual inspection. It is odd to me that both the current and proposed rules are so devoid of specifics concerning the seat mounting. As a set of minimum criteria is needed in order to make a consistent determination in this regard, I propose a minimum of 3mm thick steel or 5mm thick aluminum should be used for mount brackets that are not identifiable as being from the manufacturer of the seat (be they generic, custom, or unmarked). These material dimensions are based on a sampling of the available offerings from several FIA-approved seat manufacturers. Seat mounts should be attached to the structure of the vehicle in such a way as to prevent movement in a collision; I recommend that it be in accordance with the driver’s restraint rules in 9.3.19.F. I also suggest the addition of ISO grade 8.8 as an alternate minimum fastener due to the common practice of using metric threads in FIA seat mounting bosses.
I believe that any rule requiring the addition of a back brace to a safely mounted seat is not well founded, even if well intended. FIA seats are typically NOT built to accommodate the installation of a back brace, and leaving the design of such a device to the competitor could result in required mounting that compromises the integrity of the seat back structure and could potentially cause serious, unintended harm to the driver. I have spoken to resellers and factory representatives from Cobra, Momo, Sparco, and OMP who all state that the addition of a seat-back brace to an FIA seat, particularly a composite shell seat, is dangerous and not recommended. Many of them offered stories of seats with back braces bolted to them that had cracked or been otherwise severely compromised in a wreck. Requiring replacement seat in order to properly accommodate a seat back brace could be crippling to a racer’s budget, particularly as many are still preparing to purchase required head and neck restraints, updated belts, etc…
Additionally, adjustable mounts for use in endurance cars can be a defacto requirement. Given the variety of cars that often cannot fit a back brace to allow both short and tall drivers (del sol, MR2, X1/9, etc…), and the potential for injury should the installed device compromise the seat back, there needs to be some language or provision for the use of adjustable mounts that conform to some acceptable standards that will allow the use of an 8855-1999 homologated seat without a back brace. These mounts need not (and in most cases, should not) be those supplied with the vehicle, but could be the type sold by the manufacturer of the seat or custom fabricated for the purpose and subject to some approval either at the scrutineering level or through a compliance review such as GCR 8.1.4. As it is very important to a large portion of the active community that there be a way to approve well designed mounting that permits quick repositioning of the seat, said rule must not rely solely on the seat or car manufacturer to offer an FIA approved adjustable mount, particularly as there is no applicable FIA standard for seat mounting brackets outside of 8862-2009 where they are co-homologated with the seat – meaning only certain exotic GT’s might meet the criteria as proposed.
As such, I recommend the following language in place of that proposed:
Seats homologated to FIA standard 8855-1999 are listed on FIA technical list No. 12 along with the type of support used in homologation, i.e. lateral or lower. In accordance with the FIA standards, the seat supports (brackets) must be the type used when the seat was tested for homologation. Where seat mounting brackets are not, or cannot be identified as being of the same manufacturer as the seat, a minimum material thickness of 3mm steel and 5mm aluminum alloy shall be used. Lower mount seats may be mounted directly to the floor of a production based vehicle, provided the attachment meets the minimum criteria outlined herein. Scrutineering shall be responsible for making a determination of the fitness of a seat mount and its installation.
Seats homologated to FIA 8862-2009 shall use the brackets homologated with the seat as listed in FIA technical list No. 40.
Seat brackets may be welded or bolted to the frame or roll structure of the car, bolted to the factory seat mounting bosses, or to steel floor boards of production based cars using 2” minimum diameter washers or equivalent. All bolts used should be SAE grade 5 or ISO 8.8 minimum, hardware without grade markings is unacceptable. Holes in the roll cage to facilitate bolting shall be bushed and welded completely.
Unless supporting evidence is provided by the manufacturer that shows FIA safety cage testing for homologation included an adjustable seat mount, seats and their supports must be attached to a fixed mounting structure. Exceptions may be approved on a case by case basis by a National or Senior Scrutineer or through the Compliance Review process (see 8.1.4). Mass produced items may be approved by the CRB and listed in the GCR.
The competitor is required to have a copy of the relevant FIA technical list and any additional homologation certificates or other certifying documentation on hand at all events.

[Streetwise guy]

[QUOTE=Chip42;312470].
So obviously, the solution to human damages caused by the above is to force the installation of a structure and design-defeating back brace. this will end up hurting more people than it helps if it goes through.
QUOTE]

I'm curious about this statement. Is it your concern that a poorly designed seatback brace will pierce the seat, causing more injury, or is there a "collapsibility" or energy absorbtion built into an FIA seat?

[quadzjr]

that is the concern among other.. Ask the manufacturers about adding a seat back brace to there composite FIA seat. They will highly suggest against it unless it was designed for it. Take my seat for example. It is a Sparco Sprint 5. It is a universal solution and is under the FIA cert list 12. The seat in construction is basically a glorified lawn chair. It has a steel chassis and wraps cloth around the steel. So on my seat the entire back of the seat is cloth, there is nothing to attach a back brace to. you "could" build som sort of plate but then you still have a spear on the other side of that plate that the seat will not protect me from.

[rsportvolvo]

Part of the issue is the design of these improvised seatback braces. The purpose of the seatback brace is to support the driver in a lateral impact, yet most seat back braces are design to support the driver in a frontal impact (e.g. spear design). Racetech provides a drawing of their recommended seatback brace design. It is basically an aluminum plate with a 90 deg tab mounted at the seat. The other end of the plate is mounted to the main hoop cross tube with 2 shear bolts. In a frontal impact the plate will deform and absorb load and in a lateral impact the plate will support the driver. A thought out solution to the problem.

The main issue with adding a seat back brace to a regular FIA seat is that the seat was not designed nor tested nor certified by the FIA with the seat back brace installed. No FIA seat manufacturer supports adding these braces. Essentially SCCA is creating new regulations w/o testing (HIGH liability in the event of an injury) and on the flip side they are failing to enforce the existing FIA standards. This is a HUGE risk taken by SCCA and ultimately the membership will absorb the costs of this poor decision. A possible solution is to use the latest FIA seat standard, which would provide a COSTLY investment in seating for all or require everyone to use a Racetech.

[Chip42]

the seat backs on floor (lateral or lower) mounted 8855-1999 seats is designed like a cantilevered spring - the back is meant to deform a bit to absorb energy.
the key points are these:
1 - you need a sturdy mounting to deal with these cantilevered loads. OE seat rails don't cut it, nor to small washers though thin sheetmetal of a factory floor.
2 - if you add a back brace, you must ensure that the seat back itself is not compromised. composites are not as straitforward to work with as metal - more like wood. if the back fails the driver is no longer supported the back brace could become a spear, etc... additionally, as the seat is mean tto deform, it could allow the driver to be loaded at the mount for the back brace - even a racetech seat back brace on a non racetech seat could have this problem.
3 - the design of this brace and it's mounting fixture on the seat will need to vary with the seat design, and will need to be controlled. there's no good mechanism to do this uin our technical inspection, and the amount of data that would need to be organized to do so is not trivial even if we did.

FIA has shown these seats to do be very safe under the 8855-1999 homologation. we need to insure they are mounted securely enough to remain safe. adding additional members to a variety of systems is a poorly thought out and overly simplified approach.