Diesel in IT

[Greg Amy]

That's certainly one reason to ban DSG, but that doesn't answer my question about why automatics were originally banned.

I've been around in IT since its beginning - and maybe Kirk can offer some further insight - but keep in mind both the mindset of "sporty car" Club Racing in 1984 as well as the technology of 60's, 70's, ad 80's automatic transmissions, and I think it's easy to understand why.

After all, how many of you would ever dream of considering an automatic transmission prior to the days of 6-speeds (now 7-speeds!), DSG/SMG, and electronic control...? Even now, despite the advanced technology, I'm guessing you still prefer the good ole stick.

GA

[Knestis]

I actually present when they wrote the national IT rules set but the prevailing sentiment around the category then was exactly as Greg describes - and not at all UNLIKE what we hear any time someone suggests that ABS be allowed in IT. "Driver aids" are evil. Sports cars are, well, sports cars. But then again, nobody would have wanted to race a Datsun 510 with an auto.

Station wagons weren't allowed - again, based on conversation in our neck of the woods - because of the perception that some of them came with "super-duty" parts. But some folks had a philosophical issues with the "look" of the category. It seems silly now but in the early '80s some SCCA people didn't like the Rabbit because it didn't fit their preconceptions re: what a sports car should be.

K

EDIT - Interesting that the original IT category rules predate the later policy decision by the Club to get away from turbo cars more generally. They were dominant in a number of SS classes in the '80s but fell out of favor with the rules-makers after we began to accept that we didn't have the "technology" (i.e., intestinal fortitude?) to bust cheaters. They're back in other restricted club racing classes so there's frankly little excuse for not considering them in IT.

[JoshS]

The only car listed in IT that came with an available "clutchless manual" transmission is the MR2 Spyder that was just recently added. Toyota calls it "SMT". It has only a single clutch, not the dual-clutch of the more modern variants, but it's still basically the same thing (a manual transmission with an electro-hydraulic shifter/clutch mechanism). The Toyota version is unique in that it doesn't even have an "automatic" mode.

When that car was classed, the ITAC discussed this transmission, and the technology in general, in depth. I think in the future when more cars have these available we'll probably be discussing it more. But I'll say this -- it is not banned in the MR2 Spyder, and probably won't be banned for the next listed car that has one available either.

[Chip42]

that was a scab to try and sell more of the things to girls. it's unique among that "technology" in that it 1: "bolts on" to the existing 5-spd manual, and 2: is a hinderance - shifts (particularly UPshifts) are slower than most of us would do on the street with an H-pattern. Car and Driver had it 1.4s slower to 60mph than the standard manual. certainly makes threshold braking/shifting easier, but I think the fast guys would loose time with this system.

it's likely computer work could improve the speed, but being based on the 5spd H-pattern gearbox means that the effects on lap times are likely to be minimal. I admit that it can be a driver aid if tuned well, but postulate that it's not significant enough to be worth worrying about. there was a guy in the DC region in a CF who lost his right arm and had a similar system approved for use in his car back in the 90s. can't remember his name, but it didn't seem to make him any better or worse (though one arm might have balanced the possitive effects a bit).

DSGs, ferrari-style "flappy paddle gearboxes" and the like are another breed entirely - they are NOT just a computer shifting an otherwise traditional manual. they are coming, I don't see how we can avoid that (do we want to?) but their inherant ability to spend more time engaged should merit consideration for a weight adder but nothing more.

The only car listed in IT that came with an available "clutchless manual" transmission is the MR2 Spyder that was just recently added. Toyota calls it "SMT". It has only a single clutch, not the dual-clutch of the more modern variants, but it's still basically the same thing (a manual transmission with an electro-hydraulic shifter/clutch mechanism). The Toyota version is unique in that it doesn't even have an "automatic" mode.

When that car was classed, the ITAC discussed this transmission, and the technology in general, in depth. I think in the future when more cars have these available we'll probably be discussing it more. But I'll say this -- it is not banned in the MR2 Spyder, and probably won't be banned for the next listed car that has one available either.

[Rud]

After all, how many of you would ever dream of considering an automatic transmission prior to the days of 6-speeds (now 7-speeds!), DSG/SMG, and electronic control...?

True enough. Thanks!

[GKR_17]

The only car listed in IT that came with an available "clutchless manual" transmission is the MR2 Spyder that was just recently added. Toyota calls it "SMT". It has only a single clutch, not the dual-clutch of the more modern variants, but it's still basically the same thing (a manual transmission with an electro-hydraulic shifter/clutch mechanism). The Toyota version is unique in that it doesn't even have an "automatic" mode.

When that car was classed, the ITAC discussed this transmission, and the technology in general, in depth. I think in the future when more cars have these available we'll probably be discussing it more. But I'll say this -- it is not banned in the MR2 Spyder, and probably won't be banned for the next listed car that has one available either.

Try again. The BMW Z4 as currently listed in ITR had the SMG tranny optional. Same goes for the E46 if the 2003 year gets added.

[JoshS]

Try again. The BMW Z4 as currently listed in ITR had the SMG tranny optional. Same goes for the E46 if the 2003 year gets added.

Yes, you are right. When I said that I was thinking that it was only available with the 3.0 but it was also available with the 2.5.

[callard]

The Porsche 911 model had a clutchless manual in the late '60s.

[Knestis]

The "Sportmatic!" VW had a similar system, I think. I think our Type III squareback had one.

K

[Greg Amy]

The "Sportmatic!" VW had a similar system, I think. I think our Type III squareback had one...

...and it was horrid. It was a regular standard transmission and clutch, but with a torque converter, too. It used sensors to detect when the stickshift had any force placed on it; when that happened it used a vacuum solenoid to disengage the stock clutch. You then moved the stick to the new gear and when you released the stick - thus removing any force on the stick, the vacuum system re-engaged the clutch. What an abomination that was!

Anyone who wants to race one of those in Improved Touring is more than welcome to it...

On edit: Oh, by the way, it was Sportomatic...

[callard]

And the guy who raced one in the early '70s didn't have a left leg. Worked pretty good for him.
But as Greg describes, there was a whole lotta monkey motion goin on there to accomplish a shift.

[Hoof Hearted]

How 'bout a TDI Scirocco... ...this is as close as I'll come.

[Conover]

Here's an idea.

World Challenge Touring Car

Basically IT cars with turbos, with the exception of a few of the cars most of them are turbos.

They use a monitoring system to insure that no one is using too much boost. They just have a boost limit, no restrictors, well, as of 2011 there wont be restrictors. So anyway, maybe we could learn from what the SCCA is already doing.

This could lead to making room for some of the older WC cars to move into IT as they age out of WC. Almost fits perfectly they have to be newer than 7 years, we have to be older than 5.

Of course this is general FI, doesn't really address the diesel thing, but. . .


I can't take suggestions of building a spec diesel class seriously, for one, that would be kinda boring. Part of my motivation for wanting to see diesels included in IT is to enjoy watching how they compare and compete with existing IT cars. Now if it was a diesel miata that would be entirely different.

[Ralf]

One thing that would definetly need to addressed is the excessive smoke from the tailpipe. I know that in stock form, VW TDI's don't smoke but what happens when some mods are done? I know I gag when following a diesel truck/bus and drive through their cloud. And if you don't think that would be possible, check out the pics here.

[Greg Amy]

I know that in stock form, VW TDI's don't smoke but what happens when some mods are done?

The TDI Cup cars do not smoke at all.

[pfcs]

"...and it was horrid. It was a regular standard transmission and clutch, but with a torque converter, too. It used sensors to detect when the stickshift had any force placed on it; when that happened it used a vacuum solenoid to disengage the stock clutch. You then moved the stick to the new gear and when you released the stick - thus removing any force on the stick, the vacuum system re-engaged the clutch. What an abomination that was!
Anyone who wants to race one of those in Improved Touring is more than welcome to it...
On edit: Oh, by the way, it was Sportomatic..."

......And the VW system was virtually identical, called "automatic stickshift".
It was available starting in 68 in beetles and Ghias. Type IIIs had a 3 speed full automatic. Auto-sticks used a 4 speed manual gearset without first because of the torque multiplication of the....you guessed it! Torque convertor.

I wouldn't been very much interested if it hadn't been autostick components that made my hand controlled A2 so viable on street and racetrack. That setup used the Beetle shift-base microswitch, vacuum servo and vacuum modulator to allow hand-only clutch operation that controlled clutch release rate according to airflow (ie: load).
It worked great, however speed-shifiting was impossible; fast shifts were easy, but in that it always fully released the clutch, they weren't anywhere as quick as when I used my feet.
Before I built the Golf, I looked at the Toyota. At that time it wasn't classified, but I was promised that if I really was interested, it could be.
That system is very similar in function to what I built-it's fairly normal clutch is controlled by a servo controlled by digital processors, and speed shifting or very quick shifting just doesn't happen. I believe Fitchel & Sachs developed it, the people who made half of the European clutches in the past 40 years.
I embellished on the system, adding 2 wiper-motors with uni-direction coaxial links on the bell cranks that would ground the vacuum solenoid (de-clutch) as the stroke of the wiper-crank would move the shifter from 5-4 or 4-3 when a button on the hand-control (&brake handle) was pushed.
I don't know if anyone noticed that a guy with no legs was able to left-foot brake and never miss the shift because he was declutching too!

[Ralf]

The TDI Cup cars do not smoke at all.

That's true but if you look at the picture in the link or watch some TDI Youtube videos, some of them are modified to the point of smoking a lot. I'm sure those are the extremes, but I also don't know how much they are modified.

[Greg Amy]

That's true but if you look at the picture in the link or watch some TDI Youtube videos, some of them are modified to the point of smoking a lot. I'm sure those are the extremes, but I also don't know how much they are modified.

I suspect you're talking "TDI cars" in general, not "TDI CUP" race cars (plus, the Cup cars run on biodiesel exclusively).

Diesels can be modified to smoke a lot - you usually see a lot of smoke on highly-modified cars - but it's a waste of energy and fuel. And, without getting into a lot of technical discussions, a lot of smoke is an indication of potential long-term damage (you'll get high EGTs and start melting stuff).

But yes, your point is noted: diesels in general can be modified to smoke a lot, which would be annoying on track. But I've been behind poorly-modified gasoline race cars that ran so terribly it made my eyes water; does it make it better that I can't see the annoyance coming at me...?)

If I could buy one of those TDI Cup cars I'd make it an exclusive enduro car, whatever class they'd let me run it in...

GA

[RacerBill]

If I could buy one of those TDI Cup cars I'd make it an exclusive enduro car, whatever class they'd let me run it in...

GA

The TDI Cup cars do the entire season on 2 (that's TWO, folks) tanks of fuel. So figure an hour and a half track time per race and a ten race reason, that comes out to something like 7 hours per tank!!!!!!!

BTW, you can purchase a street version of the TDI Cup cars, and in head to head tests they are less than a second a lap slower than the actual race cars. I'll try to look up the video where the test was performed to see what other differences and what track.

[Greg Amy]

The TDI Cup cars do the entire season on 2 (that's TWO, folks) tanks of fuel...

Well, to be accurate, they do all the RACES on two tanks of biodiesel. They use additional fuel for the practice and quallies. Regardless, it's a nice statistic.

BTW, you can purchase a street version of the TDI Cup cars...

Starting price, high $20k's, if you can find one. Then you get to add race prep to it on top of that...