Diesel in IT

[Conover]

I've been wondering lately if there is anyway to fit a diesel car into an IT class. I'm not talking about, "Yeah sure, we'll create ITDiesel." I'd want them to somehow slot into the existing classes. The problem here is that any diesel that anyone would want to race would probably have a turbo bolted onto the exhaust manifold. But would maybe still fit into some IT slot in terms of performance. One way to regulate that may be to require stock mapping of the ECU, stock injectors, stock turbo, etc. Basically a No-Prep engine package. Really, there is not much to a diesel car, you got fuel, compression, and air, that's about it. Should be relatively straight forward to regulate, in my opinion anyway.

I know, I know, the first thing most people are going to say is that they don't want to race around cars blowing all that soot. And to people with that opinion, I'll just say, your not paying attention.

I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on this? Why can't that work? Why will it work? or whatever

Thanks.

[mossaidis]

I can't see why we can't make it work, though policing "stock" ECU rule is an interesting challenge for, it seems, regional-only class.

PS. Do you run non-stock injectors on your IT car?

[quadzjr]

There is no allowance for turbo-ed cars let alone turboed diesels. How woudl you apply a torque adder to this? I think then we may woudl want to adopt what others have said that pro racing serios have used (hp+tq)/2 for porcess power.

[JoshS]

I think these come in when turbos come in. I don't know when that will be but I think there are lots of forced induction cars waiting for an opportunity in IT. The turbodiesels are only a small fraction of those waiting in line ...

If anyone wants to educate me on turbo inlet restrictors, as done now in the STU class, their efficacy in terms of making power output predictable, and their side effects, please do! Because as of now I'm thinking that's the way to get them in.

Thoughts about supercharged cars welcome too.

[mossaidis]

Would we allow the same overbore, head porting and shaving allowances as you do on non-turbo IT cars? Then I ask, would the turbo have an greater power increase over non-turbo IT cars given that there will be an equal bump in CR?

[Ron Earp]

Class them with hp.

Not all diesels had turbos.....

Make them run a restrictor and electronic blow off valve that cannot be tampered with. X psi and it vents.

Quite naturally though, it'll just be easier to put up road blocks and say "but you can....." and use that as justification to not class them.

Ron "Currently looking for a GM B Body Diesel" Earp. Too bad those didn't come with manuals.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlFQW5eMOew[/ame]

[rsportvolvo]

The FIA used a displacement multiplier for turbocharged cars in the '80's and early '90's. It was 1.5 until 1985-85 and then 1.7 after that. Then they regulated the boost with sealed wastegates. How does the WRC regulate boost?

[Andy Bettencourt]

IT is years away from 'needing' to deal with this mess. It would need a whole 'nother set of rules. You can't have open ECU's, you can't have open exhausts...the power gains would be HUGE. getting a restrictor 'right' would be a nightmare.

[shwah]

They also use turbo inlet restrictors in the T classes.

No one in IT is using non-stock injectors legally.

[Ron Earp]

IT is years away from 'needing' to deal with this mess. It would need a whole 'nother set of rules. You can't have open ECU's, you can't have open exhausts...the power gains would be HUGE. getting a restrictor 'right' would be a nightmare.

Integrating them IT is a problem, I do agree.

But making a "ITF", Improved Touring Forced Induction would be a good place to learn the ropes of boosted cars in IT.

R

[ShelbyRacer]

IT is years away from 'needing' to deal with this mess. It would need a whole 'nother set of rules. You can't have open ECU's, you can't have open exhausts...the power gains would be HUGE. getting a restrictor 'right' would be a nightmare.

I disagree with it being years away. I've always felt that we need to get some turbo cars classified, even if it's just the mid-late 80s stuff for now.

Pop-off valves set at "stock" boost might be an answer, but I think the SIR thing is the way to go. Sure, it will be a LOT of work to get them right *in the beginning*, but it would be no better or worse than the current under/overdog situations.

You can have open ECUs and exhausts. That stuff would be too easy to circumvent. An SIR? There's no real way of getting around that (pun sorta intended). Potential power gains may seem huge, until you choke them back to a reasonable level.

I'm not saying it's simple, but I do believe it can be done. Many of those cars would probably fall in the ITR envelope, and could help reinforce numbers in that class...

[Andy Bettencourt]

I guess you really need to see if a driver really wants to build a turbo car just so it can be restricted. Doubt it.

What turbo cars from the 80's are people itching to race? Not a heck of a lot.

[Greg Amy]

What turbo cars from the 80's are people itching to race? Not a heck of a lot.

Huh, good point. Can't imagine what kind of high-volume, inexpensive, easily-available turbo car from the 80's a guy with a moniker of "ShelbyRacer" could be interested in running...

[joeg]

Diesel Escort?

[mossaidis]

big FYI, if we ever think about rule authoring in this area: stock max boost <> stock boost curve

('<>' means 'not equal to' for you non-SQL heads)

Stock means as it came from the factory.

imagine running max 'stock' boost throughout the entire RPM range, which isn't the case for factory turbo cars (i.e. boost levels are not level, but curved)... that would be like triple the torque of my honda lugnuts.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Huh, good point. Can't imagine what kind of high-volume, inexpensive, easily-available turbo car from the 80's a guy with a moniker of "ShelbyRacer" could be interested in running...

I said 'itching to race'. LOL.

[Conover]

The only reason I mentioned injectors is because that is one of the first things people do with diesels is to upgrade the injectors.

Rally America uses turbo inlet restrictors in their WRX's. There is definitely some knowledge base out there that could be tapped.

So, what if you start with 1.8L Naturally aspirated diesel golf in ITC? It'll probably suck, but then you get some idea of how to process the diesel engine.

no one would raise the compression ratio in a diesel, the VW's are already 23:1 CR, Compression ignition, right?

If you look around you every day, you'll see that diesel cars are becoming more and more a part of our landscape, everyday I see more and more during my hour commute. Everywhere I go in my little diesel commuter people spring up out of the wood work who are also driving them and enjoying them.

Diesels are bringing home overall wins in some of the most prominent and challenging sports car races in the world.

Saying "Oh this is too much work, no one wants to do it, it's too much shit to deal with, fuck that." Is pretty much what I expected, but again, your not paying attention.

If anyone is interested in brain storming with me on this, feel free to contact me. I've been thinking about how neat it would be to have a diesel IT car for a couple of years now. I know, I'm a weirdo, a pain in the ass, and all that. But, I'm really not trying to start a bunch of crap. I'm just thinking about what the future of the sport might look like, and I'm hearing the clacking of an oil burner. . .

[Conover]

So, Ron, please avoid those early 350 based GM diesels. I mean, unless you are a glutton for punishment, oh yeah, what am I thinking. . .

So, the basic allowances for a diesel in IT assuming it is a turbo.

Open exhaust south of the turbo outlet
Open intake north of the turbo inlet
That's it, no other allowance for a Turbo diesel engine. Everything else stock, even the ECU. All other IT prep and safety rules apply.

Maybe I'll do some dyno tests with my TDI and see what it takes to get to the 20% increase. One Day . . .

[Flyinglizard]

Europe races these and gets big power. Yes, you can mill the head on a VW, mess with the injector timing, cam timing, camshaft, exhaust. Cold air intake, big as exhaust.
Blow off valves work better than SIR for boosted cars. Both could be the right way. IMHO. MM

[Conover]

Here's an idea.

Leave the rules basically the same, open ECU and etc. figure out what kind of power you'd end up with, then class it. 1.9L TDI in ITS? could be kinda fun. .