Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 44

Thread: Golf IV in B and Beetle in C?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    51

    Default

    When I say un-necessary brackets, it was those that held the old rear seat back, the ones on the floor that held the carpeting, the ones that held the interior trim panels, and the like, ditto for the ones that held the stock exhaust system and the exhaust shield and the like. Can the frame for the sunroof be removed?, YES, but the rear compartment shelf... NO, The driver side stock seat runners that are welded to the tunnel. YES, to faciltate replacement mountings, Audio systems may be removed in their entirety, Air bag systems maybe removed, AC System and associated brackets, Parking Brakes, mechanisms and actuating components may be removed....etc. hood and trunk latches maybe removed, etc....Again, this is how we intepreted the rules, and consequently we included brackets. Instead of cutting out the "un-necessary" brackets, we drilled out the welds, and removed the bracket.
    Now I'm sure that someone can debate some the brackets that I refer. But when we built the car, in 2006, the rules stated in the section 9.1.3 B "Intent" ..... No compenent or part normally found in a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, alterd or removed for the purpose of obtaining any competitive advantage. As I stated in a previous discussion back prior to the 2008 edit of this statement, I / we did not gain any competitive advantage by getting the car down to the "Legal" race weight of 2350 lbs.. When the wording was changed, which I considered an error and I forwarded my concerns to the ITAC, we did not review or even considered going back and re-install any brackets that may be in question. Getting the car down to the minimum weight does not give us any competitive advantage. The primary statement of the Intent of IT rules is to restrict modifications to be useful and necessary to construct a safe race car and that is what we did.

    As a side note...... What rule within the ITCS, or GCR, Permits the removal of the factory / stock seat belts?. We have always removed them, but in numerous times I have read the ITCS and GCR, I have never seen the words that state 'It is permitted to remove the factory installed seat belts" Please advise..... Thanks David Ellis-Brown

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by D. Ellis-Brown View Post
    As a side note...... What rule within the ITCS, or GCR, Permits the removal of the factory / stock seat belts?. We have always removed them, but in numerous times I have read the ITCS and GCR, I have never seen the words that state 'It is permitted to remove the factory installed seat belts" Please advise..... Thanks David Ellis-Brown
    9.1.3.D.9.e (page 365 of 2010 GCR) reads in part:

    e. Front passenger seat, rear seat back, rear seat bottom cushion(s), sun visors, seat belts and their attaching hardware and bracketry may be removed.


    Gary Learned
    MiDiv
    Volvo 142E
    http://www.youtube.com/user/denrael

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    7,031

    Default

    Two things:

    My general rule on brackets: If it's welded, leave it. If it's bolted in and what it held can be removed, take it out if it does nothing else.

    On the Beetle:

    That decision was based on Curb weight and estimated potential loss. It WAS a guess, but the logic and data were sound. But also, because it was a twin to the MKIII at the time, it was in interesting case study in what people would migrate to...a heavy car that was right in the target area for pwr/weight, or a lighter car that may not be able to make weight.
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    1,893

    Default

    Well there is a real ITC Beetle that was just sold by a guy in FL. Hopefully we can get an idea of the weight it hits from the new owner and verify whether it is in the right class.

    As far a brackets - the caveat I have to Andy's policy is that if the bracket is NOT present on any iteration of the car on the spec line, it can be removed - welded or not. This is rare, but there are cases for instance where a beefy tow hook is added to the unibody mid life cycle which was not there the years prior. Depending on location I would consider removing that.

    If the brackets for systems that are allowed to be removed are present on all cars on the spec line, and there is no specific allowance to remove the brackets, then I would leave them.
    Chris Schaafsma
    Golf 2 HProd

    AMT Racing Engines - DIYAutoTune.com

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    IT.com "First Loser" Greensboro, NC USA
    Posts
    8,607

    Default



    So I can whittle out the bracket that captures the rear seat pivot? And the vertical bracket in front of the main hoop, that supported the seatbelt tensioner? And that big ol' bracket that held up the front of the back seat?

    AWESOME SAUCE...!

    Kirk (who isn't at minimum weight but can now get closer)

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    IT.com "First Loser" Greensboro, NC USA
    Posts
    8,607

    Default



    ...and the bracket that supported the rear C-pillar cover and load area cover hardware?

    This gets better and better.

    K

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    IT.com "First Loser" Greensboro, NC USA
    Posts
    8,607

    Default

    Oooh! And the bracket that the original hood catch bolted to...? I probably have to leave the pieces of that, that hold up the radiator... Hmmm.

    K

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    907

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Knestis View Post

    So I can whittle out the bracket that captures the rear seat pivot? And the vertical bracket in front of the main hoop, that supported the seatbelt tensioner? And that big ol' bracket that held up the front of the back seat?

    AWESOME SAUCE...!

    Kirk (who isn't at minimum weight but can now get closer)
    "seat belts and their attaching hardware and bracketry may be removed."

    2 schools of thought -
    A. That's part of the hardware and bracketry that can be removed
    -or-
    B. The tensioner isn't part of the attaching hardware and you are out of compliance because you lack the tensioner.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Flagtown, NJ USA
    Posts
    6,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanos View Post
    "seat belts and their attaching hardware and bracketry may be removed."

    2 schools of thought -
    A. That's part of the hardware and bracketry that can be removed
    -or-
    B. The tensioner isn't part of the attaching hardware and you are out of compliance because you lack the tensioner.

    Actually, I would argue that the tensioner is part of the seat belt.

    Here's the link to that ITC Beetle that Chris mentioned.

    http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...e-F.S.-Florida

    Too bad the OP edited out the list of things done to the car. Really curious about how much it weighs.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    IT.com "First Loser" Greensboro, NC USA
    Posts
    8,607

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanos View Post
    "seat belts and their attaching hardware and bracketry may be removed."

    2 schools of thought -
    A. That's part of the hardware and bracketry that can be removed
    -or-
    B. The tensioner isn't part of the attaching hardware and you are out of compliance because you lack the tensioner.
    ...or C. The tensioner, which is intergral to the belt assembly, can simply be unbolted, but the bracket that's welded to the chassis has to stay.

    Why is the easiest, most obvious solution not a school of thought...? Not convoluted enough...?



    K

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    907

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Knestis View Post
    ...or C. The tensioner, which is intergral to the belt assembly, can simply be unbolted, but the bracket that's welded to the chassis has to stay.

    Why is the easiest, most obvious solution not a school of thought...? Not convoluted enough...?

    How did you describe that piece of metal? "...the bracket..."
    So, it's a bracket.

    The bracket is integral to an assembly that can be removed, n'est-ce pas?
    We are allowed to remove bracketry, n'est-ce pas?
    Does that bracket serve any other function?

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Flagtown, NJ USA
    Posts
    6,334

    Default

    If it's welded to the chassis, is it still a bracket, or is it part of the chassis?

  13. #33
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    IT.com "First Loser" Greensboro, NC USA
    Posts
    8,607

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Miller View Post
    If it's welded to the chassis, is it still a bracket, or is it part of the chassis?
    There's the real question...

    And of course, this requires that the specific allowance uses the term "bracket" somewhere.

    K

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    291

    Default

    Just got word on the bug. Roughly 2360 w/o driver and fuel. GET SOME.
    Chris

    Unsquishable bug on the way!!!!!

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    1,893

    Default

    So on first effort 100 or less over ITB weight.
    Chris Schaafsma
    Golf 2 HProd

    AMT Racing Engines - DIYAutoTune.com

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    291

    Default

    yeah, could have been lighter if i didn't have to patch a sunroof and kept out the extra cage tubing. I'm sure there's some more weight to be cut, but it doesn't really matter since the car is in C and has to be ballasted up to minimum. Either way, I was pretty pumped to hear how light I was able to get it. Shows it's got potential I think. Have to see how it actually does on the track now.
    Chris

    Unsquishable bug on the way!!!!!

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Flagtown, NJ USA
    Posts
    6,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rx7chris View Post
    Just got word on the bug. Roughly 2360 w/o driver and fuel. GET SOME LEAD, LOT'S OF LEAD.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shwah View Post
    So on first effort 100 or less over ITB weight.
    Come again? 2360 + 180 driver + 30 fuel = 2560. That's 200+ lbs heavier than the Golfs in ITB, right?
    Gary Learned
    MiDiv
    Volvo 142E
    http://www.youtube.com/user/denrael

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    FL.
    Posts
    1,384

    Default

    Does anyone have the 6# harmonic balance that bolts to the cross member?? Does anyone have two horns?

    If you take all of the bolts out of the car, that is what the chassis should look like, according to the rules as I have read them.

    Is the big rear seat housing a part of the seat or chassis. As the Pastor says " slippery slope" . Can you cut the rear parcel shelf supports out? No IMHO/MM

    David, WE are comming for you soon. Mike is going to drive the old welded up Roc in ITB. Hope to see you on the track then . PS, put all those brackets back in tho MM
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    1,893

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary L View Post
    Come again? 2360 + 180 driver + 30 fuel = 2560. That's 200+ lbs heavier than the Golfs in ITB, right?
    I was working on the assumption that they would not carry the classification error over to the Beetle. 2350 spec weight works out to something like 22% hp gain. BTW - no need to finish with 30# of fuel...
    Chris Schaafsma
    Golf 2 HProd

    AMT Racing Engines - DIYAutoTune.com

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •