The best ITB car nobody is racing?

[Andy Bettencourt]

tGA has me thinking seriously that a real enduro-spec (i.e., 3-hour capacity) ITA Miata could be an OA winner. The SMs are often in the top 10 with their puny little tanks and slow fuel stops.

K

Hardly an enduro for the likes of you...

The fastest car out there with one fuel stop will win a 3 hour. That's an ITR car.

[StephenB]

Hardly an enduro for the likes of you...

The fastest car out there with one fuel stop will win a 3 hour. That's an ITR car.

I agree with Andy and to be honest at most enduros it doesn't even need to be fully a developed one. I LOVE endurance racing but it Just wasn't attractive in my ITB car (although if your consistent and stay out of trouble you can usually do well!) I am still in denial about leaving ITB because its a great class with a great group of people.

My pick for ITB was the mini and i may have built one but I simply couldn't find a cheap enough donor car. I think they have a ton of potential but may cost a ton to go fast!

Someone a while back had a very fast plymouth horizon...

And my number 1 pick is the Opal GT. Looks the coolest IMHO and Jim McMahon prooved it is plenty fast back about 10yrs ago... most ITB cars today still can't stay with his times back then!

Stephen

[Greg Amy]

The fastest car out there with one fuel stop will win a 3 hour. That's an ITR car.

Kirk's not talking about a 3-hr enduro, he's talking about 3-hr legs in a long enduro.

And in endurance racing - certainly at the club level - it's not about speed, it's about, well, endurance. Spec Miatas, and cars prepped to roundabout typical SM level, are always at the pointy end at the finish of the long races because they're bullet-proof and keep going, and going, and going, and going...

The faster cars, such as ITRs, always seem to get themselves into trouble in enduros. Part of that is simply the nature of the beast, where they're tougher on equipment, tires, brakes and parts aren't as "tough"; but secondarily - and I'm going to get myself in trouble here - they "tend" to be driven by people who are more aggressive and take more chances when passing. Given the speed differentials of these cars versus the vast majority of the field (i.e., Spec Miatas) this taking-chances attitude tends to get them into trouble. Many a car starting from the pole spends a lot of time in the pits replacing go-fast parts and getting body damage repaired...

Nope, just take a extremely dependable, easy-to-drive, easy-on-equipment, decent-speed (but not necessarily the fastest) car, add in 3-hour legs, and be the Energizer. That answer is a lightly-modified Miata, as in Spec Miata with some additional basic speed mods. Hell, I'd even run the basic SM suspension with re-tuned shocks, open (but quiet) exhaust, pull the intake restrictor and add a good intake, throw on some R6 Ho-Hos and lightweight wheels, harder-compound pads, and go win endurance races. Let the ITR cars beat themselves up and wave as you pass them while they're in the pits... - GA

[924Guy]

There is a Firearrow locally here in ITC, very fast, competitive, as long as he can stay out of trouble.

The E21 320 was fast, but tough to keep the pace, and has aero nearly as bad as a Volvo on the big tracks. Not what you want to try to chase down a Golf 3 with. Rocker arms seem to be a weak point, too.

There is a 4cyl Fear-o locally, actually two. They're both pretty crap. Can't see getting around that suspension, not to mention lack of engine output...

[quadzjr]

If you choose the fiero, you have to use the last model year I think it was 88' that was ont eh only one with the fixed suspension issues.

[tac911t]

What else is different about the motor than the Miata? Head? intake?

Because in IT trim the 1.6 Miata makes a metric shit-ton more than that...

I quoted stock HP numbers (what I remember). The 323 that I had, was the single cam head and used a distributor.

[Chip42]

the 323, with the 8-valve 1.6L B6 was rated ~85hp. it's not a powerful car, but I bet it would do well due to weight and handling.

[Ralliboy]

I have never seen, or even heard of, a Plymouth Firearrow until this thread. So I had to go look it up. What a cool looking car !

I found a picture of one in Rally trim ...awesome.....

Made by Mitsubishi. Is that good or bad?

[erlrich]

Nope, just take a extremely dependable, easy-to-drive, easy-on-equipment, decent-speed (but not necessarily the fastest) car, add in 3-hour legs, and be the Energizer. That answer is a lightly-modified Miata, as in Spec Miata with some additional basic speed mods. Hell, I'd even run the basic SM suspension with re-tuned shocks, open (but quiet) exhaust, pull the intake restrictor and add a good intake, throw on some R6 Ho-Hos and lightweight wheels, harder-compound pads, and go win endurance races. Let the ITR cars beat themselves up and wave as you pass them while they're in the pits... - GA

It seems to me like one of the lighter, 4-cyl, ITR cars, driven by guys with an "enduro" mentality, would be the ticket. Even if you had to do two stops to every one of the Miata's you should still be able to out pace it as long as you could maintain about a 3-4 sec/lap speed difference. Something like the S2k, Integra, or Celica might be the way to go.

Of course, the prep cost on any of those cars is going to be way more than your typical SM or even ITA Miata, and I have no idea about the reliability of any of those cars in a 12 hour race, so the Miata may very well still be the best bet.

Back to the ITB question - some interesting picks, and after some research I can see why the Golfs and CRXs and Preludes are as popular as they are. Some of those cars are near impossible to find (try searching Craigslist for a Fire Arrow) or have absolutely zero aftermarket support (shocks for a Geo...you're kidding, right?), so unless you're a glutton for punishment I guess mainstream is the way to go...

[Russ Myers]

Get a Pinto, Cheap, and parts out the wazoo. and really bulletproof.

Russ

[chewy8000]

You wanted Fire Arrow you got it! Scott is VERY fast in ITB here in the MARRS series. He's signed up for the Labor Day double too. Cool car.

http://vimeo.com/groups/marrs/videos/13145218

[jjjanos]

Kirk's not talking about a 3-hr enduro, he's talking about 3-hr legs in a long enduro.

And in endurance racing - certainly at the club level - it's not about speed, it's about, well, endurance. Spec Miatas, and cars prepped to roundabout typical SM level, are always at the pointy end at the finish of the long races because they're bullet-proof and keep going, and going, and going, and going...

It's the 17-year locust theory -- swamp the predators with massive numbers because they can't all of the offspring... one of the vermin is going to survive.

The faster cars, such as ITRs... "tend" to be driven by people who are more aggressive and take more chances when passing.

Compared to the typical Spec Me driver?

That being said, an ITA Miata is, IMO, an excellent long enduro car.

[Greg Amy]

It's the 17-year locust theory...

I disagree, because at least in the enduros that we do along the East Coast here, we keep seeing the same locusts at the pointy end each race...

Compared to the typical Spec Me driver?

Point taken. Said differently, it seems the faster cars with the higher speed delta to the rest of the field tend to try and push that delta-speed tactically a bit harder, instead of showing patience and using that speed advantage strategically.

I speak, of course, wholly in generalities, and intentionally.

GA

[JeffYoung]

Holy Jesus I agree with Greg.

I think a Bimmerworld Miata (SM no less) WON the overall at the first VIR 13 hour.

My recollection is that SMs are routinely in the top 20 overall, a lot of them, at VIR for the 13 hour for the reasons Greg and Kirk lay out.

There is no more perfect car for enduro work than a Miata. We've run the entire 13 hour on one set of pads with plenty left at the end, and with 6 tires (just changed the left sides). If you can get the car to run more than the 1.5 hours it will on the stock tank (fuel starves), it could win overall I'm pretty sure. That said, the Bimmerworld guys have done really well in their BMWs the last few years and have sorted that stuff out for long hauls.

13 overall is an interesting race. We are taking a different approach this year, a high grip, but lowish hp car that we hope can run 2 hours. We'll see how it pans out.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I agree with Greg too - now that he clarified what he considered to be the ITA spec. My car uses 2 more gallons per 20 minute session than an SSM-spec 1.6L Miata...

I still think a set of patient drivers in an S2000 could cruise around just in front of the buzzing hoard of Miata's then lay the wood to them whenever they chose.

[rydermike]

Audi 4000S ..... 4 wheel drive ! Great in rain and the 4 WD is also a bonus to be able to use more lines.

[JIgou]

I still think a set of patient drivers in an S2000 could cruise around just in front of the buzzing hoard of Miata's then lay the wood to them whenever they chose.

That works with another Hondacura product in ITR, too. 2 hours on a load of fuel, don't have to change brake pads, double-stint the front tires.....it's not a bad way to go.

[spawpoet]

I agree with Greg too - now that he clarified what he considered to be the ITA spec. My car uses 2 more gallons per 20 minute session than an SSM-spec 1.6L Miata...

I still think a set of patient drivers in an S2000 could cruise around just in front of the buzzing hoard of Miata's then lay the wood to them whenever they chose.

Why not run the newer ITS Miata, and have the best of both worlds. ITS level speed, with Miata reliability and light weight should be strong in the 12 hour races. Hell the ISC ITS Miata (ex-Van Steenburg I think) routinely runs right with and often in front of all the ITR cars down here.

[Knestis]

Why not run the newer ITS Miata, and have the best of both worlds. ITS level speed, with Miata reliability and light weight should be strong in the 12 hour races. Hell the ISC ITS Miata (ex-Van Steenburg I think) routinely runs right with and often in front of all the ITR cars down here.

You have something there. NO question.

We are taking a different approach this year, a high grip, but lowish hp car that we hope can run 2 hours. We'll see how it pans out. ...

DO TELL! Inquiring minds want to know. I can spill the beans that, as of yesterday, Pablo is not going to be at the 13 hours, but I will - in a Miata.

(Cue gloomy end-of-world theme music)

I had to explain to my wife the difference between an "ITA" Miata and a "spec" Miata before she'd sign off as Minister of Finance.

K

[JeffYoung]

No problem -- I thought it was already well known.

We've been developing a Lola T70 replica (Ron owns it and has done most of the work), that Cameron has called the "Fauxla." After a classing "discussion" with NCR, it's been classed in ITE.

It's just got a carbureted Mustang motor in it, maybe 250 crank hp...maybe.

We are trying to get a car that runs comfortable 2:10s and can go 2 hours. We think that will win the overall based on our calculations. We'll see. Still a lot of development work to do before October....