Letting off Steam

[RacerBill]

...However, I have multiple videos showing the #21 chopping/blocking/wrecking at least 5 other cars during the weekend. He never did any of that to me, but I can see why others are understandable upset with the #21.

Dan

Ray was one spot over from me in the paddock all weekend. What was most memorable was the sound of mexican speed wrenches (sledge hammers) being applied to the #21 after every session! And his father's comment - 'how did that happen, this time....'

[RacerBill]

Chris is right..showing my age but Chief Stewards like Charlie Rainville in the 60's ruled NER with an iron hand and most of this Sh*t didn't happen. Granted...different times and no large fields of spec pinatas, but whatever Charlie did....it worked.

No, but we always had one or two classes where all the crazy want-to-be drivers congregated. First it was FV, then FF, then SR and SRF......

Yes, back in the 60's we had a wide range of CS's. Do you remember Heinrich Szamota? I can still hear him on the PA system at Bridgehampton saying, in his deep Germanic accent "All Group 2 car WILL report to the false grid NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

And then there was the CS who could never make a decision, so the Control Operator would move around while talking to him so that his head would move in the direction that you wanted him to answer, up and down for yes, side to side for no. This trait was later confirmed when he ran for public office and could not get elected dog catcher!!!!! (He ran for Animal Control officer in a small small town in upstate New York, and lost)

[RacerBill]

I have to agree. The easy way out is to let this slide, but if you're still sour that probably won't be as simple as you may try to convince yourself. In this case, by appealing you can help correct a drivers action and stewards. Letting it all go means that you really can't complain next time it happens to you, or someone else.

Matt: I have to agree with Dave. There are different degrees of penalties that can be applied, so the penalty does to have to be overly restrictive. The point that has been made several times on this forum is that a paper trail of previous instances needs to be started. Otherwise, when a serious infraction occurs the SOM's and CS's can say 'Well, there have not been any other incidents.....'

Would have been nice to have some history on other drivers this weekend, too.

[jjjanos]

"While the protest was well-founded, no action was taken because the SOM found "no malicious intent" on the part of the Acura driver."

7. Penalties
All Club Racing participants are subject to control by SCCA, the GCR, and the Supplemental Regulations. This Section specifies the penalties for violating the GCR and the Supplemental Regulations. (Comment - I.E. the list contains the full range of penalties for a driver found in violation of the GCR. If it is on the list, it may be imposed. If it isn't on the list, it may not be imposed.)

7.2. RANGE OF PENALTIES

In increasing order of severity, the range of penalties is as follows: (A list of penalties which does not include not imposing a penalty.)

Based on what you wrote and my understanding of what the GCR directs, the SOMs found that he violated the GCR and, having done that, they must impose a penalty from 7.2, even if it is as minor as a $1 fine. No penalty is not on that list. The SOMS did not do that and that gives you grounds to appeal.

The reason is this is important is that, even though imposing a fine is considered less of a penalty than a reprimand, most Stewards won't impose a fine and will reprimand them, toss a time/finishing position and or DQ them.

Anything above a $99 fine imposes penalty points. The only way to establish a paper trail of violations is for a driver to have penalties imposed by the SoMs. Rack up 11 points in a 3-year period and you just bought yourself probation.

[teritanz25]

I have been reading this for two days now and just felt the need to give some feedback. I was there, I was in all four "events" for the weekend in Group 2. This will be my fourth year in SCCA racing IT-S in the BMW #25. In all the races that I have been to over the years I have never seen or heard so many complaints and gripes about one run group. We all know what has been said about Dan & Kip from Saturday. Then we have also all heard what happened between that IT-B VW and seems like everyone else. I have watched that video between Acura and the Dodge. We also had that incident in the first 1/4 lap of Sunday's race which seemed to involve four cars, one of which was the Red Mustang which I almost hit square in door as I entered the carosel. SO.....All that being said, I am not here to bash or complain, What I wanted to say is the even though this was probably one of craziest and some of the dumbest and rudest driving I have ever seen, I want to Thank Charles Tobel for one of the greatest and "cleanest" races I have ever had. For those who do not know and did not see, Charles and I raced each other from Green Flag to less than 4 feet at the finish, nose to tail almost for 20 laps. In all the things that were soooo messed up in Group 2 there were some bright spots and I do not want the world to think that because a few bad apples things are going down hill, I did have few moments where certain individuals would not move when they knew they should but that is racing I guess. I also am still up in the air about that start and whether we should be starting in the back, I say NO. The one thing that I hated the most about starting there was how early they threw the green flag after coming off of the Key Hole, I did start 6th so I was pretty close to the front and it was still just very odd how early they threw it, then on Sunday ( after my wheel feel off in qualifying ) I had to start last and that was even worse back there....Anyhow, sorry rant but just wanted to give my thoughts.

[preparedcivic]

I've decided that I will probably not appeal the decision, but I will be contacting the SOM and CS later just to share my thoughts as I've presented them here.

Matt:

I was the "camera" car in the vid, #5 white CRX that was chasing you hard when the hit occurred. Seeing it right in front of me was a big WTF moment; that was my first thought, my second was I was glad the guy got by me on the straight driving like that.

Let me know if you want the original MPEG file. I'd be happy to provide, and would have at the event but no one came to find me.

[lateapex911]

Matt, thankyou for writing paper. That is something that obviously needs to be done, and clearly needs to be done more often. That said, please appeal. Every one of us needs to contribute to the knowledge base on other drivers. This is your time.

I'm sure the Acura driver is a nice enough guy, but you were MUGGED, Matt. What he was doing way over on the inside, WAY too shallow, with WAY too much speed, I'll never know. Amazingly stupid for someone with a racing license . Of COURSE he's going to go tangental. Ever heard of an early apex? I don't for a second buy the "my tires were going off" bs. Well, if they were, then why weren't you adjusting your lines, braking points and throttle openings? That's called driving.

Simple fact is you let him all the room in the world, and you can't just vaporize. He SHOULD have been right up close to your passenger door in the braking zone, and at turn in, in order to:
1- Make sure you know where he is,
2- Make the corner as large a radius as possible, since he may, or may not be able to clear the overlap by track out, and might not be able to use the last 5 feet of track at track out.
3- and to control YOUR turn in. YOU can't turn in until HE turns in. (not that you did anything wrong, but, he was so far out of your field of vision, it would have been easy for you to have assumed he backed out and you might have taken a crack at getting closer to the apex. (boom))

This one is black and white, yet it appears he doesn't feel he was in the wrong. He was. 100%. He needs to "Get that".

[Eagle7]

Thanks Marty, for verifying the car number. Would love to see the video.

Here ya go. Wonder if I know how to do this.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rncaOE9vwoo[/ame]

[EBSNASCAR]

Tom,

Man! You were wringing the crap out that 'Stang on Sunday. Great job! I stopped by your pit 2-3 times to talk but never caught up with you.

I was in the black/orange ITB Civic behind you and the #21 VW for those same 15 laps. I agree that all three of us raced clean for that stint. I even talked with the #21 driver after Sunday's race and he commented on how close but clean the three of us drove. In the end I got around you both, and had Heckman in my sights, but there just weren't enough laps remaining.

However, I have multiple videos showing the #21 chopping/blocking/wrecking at least 5 other cars during the weekend. He never did any of that to me, but I can see why others are understandable upset with the #21.

Dan

Thanks for the kudos. Just trying my best and hoping to stay out of everyone's way. (Chris Childs / Vaughan Scott / Charlie Tabel were a big help too!) Kinda crazy how the #21 drove us clean but was a pin ball the rest of the weekend. Sorry I missed you, I will have to catch up with you another time.

[jumbojimbo]

Interesting video. What am I missing? It looks like Sr Ruck can't figure out who to block, he's inside trying to block the mustang and then tries to slide left to block the vw. (keeping in mind that by block I mean "squeeze", not necessarily "block illegally")

What caught my eye was how far inside the mustang was, I was thinking, does he know where the corner goes, then I wondered why there was even room on the outside at the turn in for the vw.

I'm trying to figure out how the vw's move is any different from the move made by the orange honda in the rear view who goes BETWEEN cars in pretty much the same place.

I'm willing to learn, what am I missing here?

Whoops, I missed the contact with the mustang going up the hill, that was a bad move.

[R2 Racing]

It looks like Sr Ruck can't figure out who to block, he's inside trying to block the mustang and then tries to slide left to block the vw. (keeping in mind that by block I mean "squeeze", not necessarily "block illegally")

In Marty's video? My Dad's not even around a Mustang or a VW in that video. Yes, maybe sliding left in front of Tom's Honda into turn 11 could be seen as "blocking", but it's not like there was any near contact or darting moves. That's all I'm seeing, and it was probably just a manuever to pass Dan, which worked.

And believe me, if my Dad does something dumb on track, I'm the first person to yell at him for it.

[StephF]

Sounds like an interesting weekend. Sorry we missed it (well, the ITC race anyway, they had a real barnburner going)
On a tangent, I'm looking into new video systems for our cars. Marty, what are you using? I LOVE that front and rear view screen like that!
Is that the Chasecam system?
Anyone else, feel free to chime in about what you have in your car currently.
OK, back to your regularly scheduled program...

[jumbojimbo]

I'm at work and can't see the video but what I remember is...

In the short chute leading up the right hander to enter thunder valley.
The red mustang is way right, maybe scared by the vw or maybe trying to get inside the orange honda I thought was RuckSr.
The honda is middle of the road or maybe slightly right, perhaps protecting the inside line, but leaving enough room on the outside turn in point for a full car, which the vw jumps into.
On the exit I can't see what happens but it's likely the honda drifts out and the vw comes back and maybe they bump?

Definitely I didn't mean to imply the honda(?) was blocking, I meant protecting. But in doing so, he was way right of the ripple strips at the turn in point and there was room for a car on his outside.

again, i seems to me the vw is doing nothing much different from the car in rear view, that car went BETWEEN cars at the same point at the turn entry.

I'm not definding the Chopster but I guess I'd like someone to point out step by step what the vw did so wrong in the video. seems like he squeezed dan at madness, definitely hit the mustang, but besides that nothing sticks out to me as different from what everyone else is doing. dive in on 9, yeah, cars in front in back doing that too.

[gran racing]

but besides that

LOL! That was only 55 seconds of the event.

[Knestis]

Here ya go. Wonder if I know how to do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rncaOE9vwoo

Am I the only one here who watched that white Golf carve through the field like an old Speed Racer cartoon or scene from Days of Thunder, thinking that it would take a LOT of poop under the hood to make that possible...?

K

[mossaidis]

^^ ditto that - I hardly believe the IT-fest drivers would be lack the nuts to drive all out and just let someone drive by. Also, mentioned before... he violates the GCR by not controling his car, adds insult to injury (as well as literal) by saying his tires were off and yet he didn't slow down "ok, so you can't be in control of your car if you drive like that since your tires are off". This guy along with the SoM are direct contradictions to what the GCR spells out in black and white. PLEASE PLEASE Appeal!

[RedMisted]

[QUOTE=jumbojimbo;309918]
What caught my eye was how far inside the mustang was, I was thinking, does he know where the corner goes, then I wondered why there was even room on the outside at the turn in for the vw.
QUOTE]

I think you're referencing my approach to Turn 11 after the contact with the VW. The contact ripped off my sideview mirror, and, being in close quarters action, I couldn't see if anybody was to my left. I didn't want to be a d*ck like the VW and just drive brazenly...

[tom91ita]

^^ ditto that - I hardly believe the IT-fest drivers would be lack the nuts to drive all out and just let someone drive by. Also, mentioned before... he violates the GCR by not controling his car, adds insult to injury (as well as literal) by saying his tires were off and yet he didn't slow down "ok, so you can't be in control of your car if you drive like that since your tires are off". This guy along with the SoM are direct contradictions to what the GCR spells out in black and white. PLEASE PLEASE Appeal!

i think you are combining incidents. the vw did not hit the shelby.

well, at least not in the video link i posted.

[R2 Racing]

Am I the only one here who watched that white Golf carve through the field like an old Speed Racer cartoon or scene from Days of Thunder, thinking that it would take a LOT of poop under the hood to make that possible...?

Haha, no I noticed that too, but I can tell you that running down the backstraight with my Dad all weekend, the two cars were pretty equal. Basically whoever was in the draft got the better drive. In that clip I think he just got a good jump.

[ShelbyRacer]

Matt, thankyou for writing paper. That is something that obviously needs to be done, and clearly needs to be done more often. That said, please appeal. Every one of us needs to contribute to the knowledge base on other drivers. This is your time.

I'm sure the Acura driver is a nice enough guy, but you were MUGGED, Matt. What he was doing way over on the inside, WAY too shallow, with WAY too much speed, I'll never know. Amazingly stupid for someone with a racing license . Of COURSE he's going to go tangental. Ever heard of an early apex? I don't for a second buy the "my tires were going off" bs. Well, if they were, then why weren't you adjusting your lines, braking points and throttle openings? That's called driving.

Simple fact is you let him all the room in the world, and you can't just vaporize. He SHOULD have been right up close to your passenger door in the braking zone, and at turn in, in order to:
1- Make sure you know where he is,
2- Make the corner as large a radius as possible, since he may, or may not be able to clear the overlap by track out, and might not be able to use the last 5 feet of track at track out.
3- and to control YOUR turn in. YOU can't turn in until HE turns in. (not that you did anything wrong, but, he was so far out of your field of vision, it would have been easy for you to have assumed he backed out and you might have taken a crack at getting closer to the apex. (boom))

This one is black and white, yet it appears he doesn't feel he was in the wrong. He was. 100%. He needs to "Get that".

A few things-

I am making the most of my allowed appeal period. I'm simply not sure that I can afford to lose a minimum of $100 (according to the current GCR, that is the minimum Administrative fee). I know it's a point that needs to be made, and that's why I filed the protest to begin with...

As for your #3- if I hadn't have pointed him by, perhaps he might not have assumed that I knew he was there, and maybe he'd have been more "on my door". No matter what, his driving/racing technique sucked.

I think I need to appeal, but I'm not sure if it's in the cards at this point...