Confusing Split Start – Hopefully a Learning Opportunity

[pballance]

I have read and re-read all of the comments. Interesting and without getting into the weeds, I would like to add one more perspective to address OP's original question.

Dave, I think you were correct. It was pounded into my head that the absence of any flag, means the race is on. A yellow or double yellow means no passing, period, end of discussion in my book (also see Butch's comments above)regardless of what is being displayed a corner or two or three in front of me.

This has been affirmed in my time spent flagging and in the driver's seat. I know in SEDIV, if you pass under yellow, expect to have a conversation with the stewards regardless of the circumstances.

At several of the tracks I have raced and flagged, it is not uncommon to "cover a waving yellow" with a standing yellow at the upstream station. It is to tell the drivers that you are about to encounter something, get the car under full control and be careful. Turn 1 at Nashville is that way. You cannot see an incident that is downstream of the apex of turn 1 because of the wall and you don't want to be coming off of the banking into the braking area at a 100+, jousting for position, when 100 feet or less around the corner is a car sitting across the track. You will not see a waving yellow until you have made your turn in. Too late then.

Dave, mistakes happen, you did the right thing, and if the corner stations had reported the pass under yellow in SEDIV, there would be a Stewards discussions with the driver, and maybe penalties, after the race.

Come race with me any time Dave.

[quadzjr]

That was alot of reading. Okay, I know what I woudl of done. (saw yellow not passed), but I also see what Janos is saying. The GCR says no passing till incident. So in his example with the 4 corner stations if there was a car pulled over to the side of the road jsut after a standing yellow then you would be allowed to pass after passing the stranded car as allowed in the GCR.

Now if you add a waving yellow at the next station. From how I read the GCR memory may be missing a bit, but once you pass the fie first incdent that resulted in the standing yellow, you are now pass the "incident" and would be allowed to race to the next flaggin station which would have the waving yellow for an on track issue.

My next question is when does the flagging station start? Is there a imaginary line made from the flagging station to the perpendicular of the track? Meaning if you execute a pass and cuts it close to passing under yellow, what is the determing factor if you were still in green or now yellow?

I am racing for fun as well as competitivness. If I see a yellow ahead like has been said I go into "yellow mode" I start driving and looking in caution.

[John Nesbitt]

My next question is when does the flagging station start? Is there a imaginary line made from the flagging station to the perpendicular of the track? Meaning if you execute a pass and cuts it close to passing under yellow, what is the determing factor if you were still in green or now yellow?

The yellow flag zone starts from the flag, not from the station. Draw a line perpendicular from the flag across the track, and there is the start of the no-passing zone.

[quadzjr]

The yellow flag zone starts from the flag, not from the station. Draw a line perpendicular from the flag across the track, and there is the start of the no-passing zone.

Yeah but isn't the flag typically at the station? So if me and you are racing and there is a standing yellow at the hair pin and I pull along side for the pass notice the yellow notice the car off track, and decide that I can pass as long as I can get the nose of my car infront of your in the braking zone as we dive down into the corner, while passing the corner worker stand?

Maybe they need to implement a station rule instead of incident rule. So if there is a wreck at the corner 2 flagging station 1 could throw the yellow and 3 would have the green.

[lateapex911]

Technically, you draw a line perpendicular, as John points out, from the flag across the track. If you are making a pass, you need to complete it before that line. I had a chat with a steward about this, and that's what he stated. (I was being passed, and backed out of it, because I thought it was a stupid idea, in retrospect, perhaps I should have charged in there and not been nice, the other driver would have been charged with a pass under yellow. ) Completion, according to the steward is that your rear bumper breaks the imaginary plane of the nose of the pasee's car.

I think that calling it by the station isn't really much different, typically the difference in position from the flag to the leading edge of the station is what, 3 feet?

It's not pro racing, and pushing it to complete a pass and "get away with it" strikes me as a bonehead move...you're betting somebody else's safety on your talents, and how a guy you're passing will react. I don't like risking others safety.

I think that the Stewards have seen plenty of passes under yellow, and the results can be awful. Putting a standing yellow a station ahead strikes me as a response to our overly aggressive driving over time, and in many places, (such as the 6 /7 combo that Butch describes) it's a great call. I have seen lots pf passes attempted between 6 and 7, and not completed resulting in two cars off through 7.

JJ's practice of deciding he can pass after a non existent 'incident' is selfish and dangerous.

[John Nesbitt]

I think that calling it by the station isn't really much different, typically the difference in position from the flag to the leading edge of the station is what, 3 feet?

There can be a significant distance between the station and the actual yellow flag (Station 1 at Summit Point comes to mind).

Having the flag (rather than the station) as the reference point makes sense. The driver will (should) have seen the flag, and doesn't need to search for the station itself, which can be difficult to see. The flag is the visible thing stuck out into folks' line of sight.

Also, having the flag as reference point makes it easier for the flagger to call passes under yellow, since it happens right at his/her feet. ;-) ;-)

[Brian Holtz]

This has been an interesting discussion. My only input would be to encourage flaggers and drivers to discuss varous flagging situations so that there is more of an understanding from both sides of the armco. While most SCCA trained flaggers in NEDIV don't like to use the backup yellow, it does happen. It can happen at WGI due to the unique flag staffing situation. Butch's example of Road Atlanta is one process that they believe works for them. This practice is also used in various corners at Road America for the same reason.

And Jeff, I'll bite, No Flag.

Brian

[lateapex911]

There can be a significant distance between the station and the actual yellow flag (Station 1 at Summit Point comes to mind).

Having the flag (rather than the station) as the reference point makes sense. The driver will (should) have seen the flag, and doesn't need to search for the station itself, which can be difficult to see. The flag is the visible thing stuck out into folks' line of sight.

Also, having the flag as reference point makes it easier for the flagger to call passes under yellow, since it happens right at his/her feet. ;-) ;-)

I just reread my post, and it wasn't clear, I agree, the line should be from the flag, not the station, for all the reasons you mention.

And I don't think JJ gave us all the info, but no flag does seem like the correct answer...based on his exact scenario. I think his description has it all on the inside of the armco, so it's largely irrelevant to on track activities. Now, race control may decide to go FCY or BFA because too much emergency equipment is tied up and not available for another incident, but thats a case by case call)

[steve b]

after reading all of that I feel I've earned the right to throw in my 2 cents.

Regarding the original post. I swear I remember my classroom instructor stating that when he hears green green green on his radio, he goes. The presumption is that the double yellow will be going down any second. I've also read on this forum of guys who watch cars that have radios to go when they do rather than watch for the double yellow to drop. I don't have a radio, so I would have been sitting there saying WTF? just like the OP.

Reading on, I was shocked to learn that the wording "no passing until after the incident or until the next flag station without a yellow" did not exist in the CGR. Maybe it was beat into my head when I was doing HPDEs. Given the absence of the second half of the language in bold, how do you know when you are past the incident if it isn't there?

I have often come into a corner displaying a flag and when I round the corner I see a cloud of dust, a car coming back up to speed, or nothing at all. Given JJs scenario minus the second flag, when can he pass? Now add the second flag, when can he pass?

I've only been racing for 2 years, but I have never seen nor heard of a back-up flag until reading this thread (yeah, I see it is in the GCR; I know now) I have no problem with the idea, as I have stated before, that such a flag would come in handy at S/F at Summit Point because the flag at T1 is very close to the incident sometimes.

BUT, given the possibility of back up flags, the GCR should be revised to simply state "no passing until reaching the next flag station not displaying a yellow flag".

Back to JJ's scenario, I see a flag but no incident. Several of you have already stated that the reason the back up flag is there is because I may not be able to pick up the next flag station (perhaps they should consider relocating the flag station). So if I can't see the next flag station, and I don't see an incident do I go back to racing?

It's not what I would do, but I can see the need for some clarifications in the GCR.

While I'm on the stump. I'd just like to state that the most surprising thing to me when I started racing was the lack of respect given to yellow flags. A standing yellow at T10 or T1 at summit kills my lap times. Yet others... not so much. This is probably why I've seen 2nd and evern 3rd cars into the gravel pits this season. My friend griped about one of our full course cautions this season. My response "well they can obviously tell that we are too stupid to slow down for a local yellow, so what else can they do?"

I always error on the side of caution, that's part of the reason I'm a mid-packer (okay, back of the packer). But I'm out there to have fun and killing someone is not my idea of having fun.

[gran racing]

Steve, I rely on more communication with the workers to determine how fast I go through a yellow flag station. If it were a standing single yellow and the worker were just holding it. I'd go through the turn pretty quickly BUT be ready for just about anything. If the worker is waiving it, slow down more.

[steve b]

I was referring to times when a car is stuck in the gravel trap and the whole field has been past the incident 1 or 2 times. Everyone knows it is there and some of the field resume racing (not passing, but going through the turn 10/10s)

Next thing you know... car number 2 is in the trap... then car number 3