Confusing Split Start – Hopefully a Learning Opportunity

[JohnRW]

[disquek]

jjjanos,

Please tell me that you don't own anything that might put us on the same track at the same time.

-Kyle

[jjjanos]

Wow.

I suggest you review GCR Section 6 - specifically 6.1.1 "Meaning of Each Flag", with special attention paid to the "Note" below 6.1.1.B.

Then come back here and try to defend your statements above. I doubt you can...but it will be fun watching you try...and will provide us with a "target-rich environment" for taunting and ridicule.

This will be fun.

The note under 6.11.B is for Double Yellows.

In most of NEDIV, the Standard Operating Procedure is that a flag covers only the area from the station to the next. A standing yellow indicates a car is off somewhere between this station and the next. A waving yellow indicates that a car or a sizable chunk of car is one the racing surface.

You don't violate SOP on drivers mid-session.

[lawtonglenn]

Waypoint 1: Station A standing
Waypoint 2: Station B waving
Waypoint 3: Incident
Waypoint 4: Station C no flag

There is no incident between WP1 and WP2, therefore the yellow flag does not create a yellow course condition in that area.

The first Yellow at WP1 is the beginning of the yellow flag
area, the incident at WP3 is the end of the yellow flag area.

Glenn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"6.1.1. Meaning of Each Flag

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)

STANDING YELLOW – Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING
FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.

WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO
PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.

DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the
entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will
display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN,
NO PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other
cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).

NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the
emergency area. The requirements are still the same: SLOW
DOWN, NO PASSING."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Andy Bettencourt]

The note under 6.11.B is for Double Yellows.

In most of NEDIV, the Standard Operating Procedure is that a flag covers only the area from the station to the next. A standing yellow indicates a car is off somewhere between this station and the next. A waving yellow indicates that a car or a sizable chunk of car is one the racing surface.

You don't violate SOP on drivers mid-session.

If flag station 1 has a yellow and flag station 2 has a yellow, there is no passing between the stations. Just because you can't SEE something, doesn't mean it isn't there. The flags are there to tell you the story, even if you don't want to believe it, you have to.

[jjjanos]

That the drivers are still obliged to follow.

And by tradition and SOP, that information is that there is an incident between the displaying flag station and the next station.

Exactly how is a driver to know when and if the station is displaying information for this station and when a station is acting as back-up?

Drivers are not required to wait until they pass the next flag station, they are required to wait until they pass "the incident". If the incident is one, two or three stations away, exactly how are they to know this the first time through?

Let's say there was actually was an incident that justified a standing yellow at waypoint 1. E.g. Someone pulled off just after the station. Is that yellow for the incident I just saw or is it for something 1, 2, 3 stations down stream? Or is it for the incident and something that isn't this station's responsibility to cover?

That stationary yellow isn't going to slowdown drivers. They will ignore the admonishment to "Take care, Slow Down" because the flaggers are lying.

Backup flags serve no purpose. They do not protect anyone (no flag protects anyone. It is a sheet of nylon). Backup flags provide incorrect and conflicting information to the drivers - a bad thing.

[jjjanos]

If flag station 1 has a yellow and flag station 2 has a yellow, there is no passing between the stations. Just because you can't SEE something, doesn't mean it isn't there.

And at this track, you can see. More importantly, the tradition and SOP (at most tracks) is that the story is "Between me and the next flag station, there is something." so unless you always wait until you reach the next flag station before making a pass, I'm going to call situational ethics.


Quick quiz:
Car hits the barrier, flips over it, bursts into fire. There are 2 fire trucks and an ambulance that have responded on the backside of the barrier attempting to put out the fire and extract the driver.

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

[disquek]

I fail to understand how this basic stuff escapes some people.

How often do you see:
1. Crap like this.
2. Failing to put "both feet in" when you spin.
3. Moving over to let faster cars by.
4. Over aggressive slowing for black or red flags
5. Failing to acknowledge grid workers signals and/or not displaying a pit in signal
6. Racers going 50 in the paddock

We should require refresher courses to keep your license. At a minimum there should be tests.

-Kyle

[JohnRW]

The note under 6.11.B is for Double Yellows.

Um...no, it is not. It is a note at the bottom of a section called "Yellow Flag", and separate from the paragraphs titled "Standing Yellow", "Waved" and "Double Yellow, Displayed At All Stations".




See ? I told you this would be fun.

.
You don't violate SOP on drivers mid-session.

Of course, you've just mentioned "SOP" several times, and we need to get it into context -

Under unwritten SOP, the flag indicates an incident between waypoint 1 and waypoint 2. No incident visible means the driver has passed the incident and may pass legally.

Wtf is that ? "Unwritten SOP" somehow takes precedence over the written GCR ? So...where can I find this "unwritten SOP" ? It's unwritten...so maybe it's passed along by wizened gurus speaking in odd Latin declentions ? Or...maybe you're just making this crap up ! Inquiring minds want to know !

[disquek]

... "Between me and the next flag station, there is something." so unless you always wait until you reach the next flag station before making a pass, ...

Ding ding ding ... so you did know the correct answer after all.

You MUST wait for the next flag station before passing if there is no incident (or if you don't see the incident).

Frankly, when you pass a car after a yellow flag, are you always 100% SURE that's the last of the incident? 100% sure? Willing to bet yours and your friends life on it sure?

Wait for the next flag station. Don't be "that guy".

-Kyle

[JohnRW]

Quick quiz:
Car hits the barrier, flips over it, bursts into fire. There are 2 fire trucks and an ambulance that have responded on the backside of the barrier attempting to put out the fire and extract the driver.

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

BZZZZT. Attempted "Red Herring"....a deflection of the original discussion. 10 yds. or 3 regional events probation.

[spawpoet]

And by tradition and SOP, that information is that there is an incident between the displaying flag station and the next station.

Or in this case the double yellow is telling the field (that cannot see the flag station at S/F) that the green has not fallen. Doesn't matter if they are wrong, if the double yellow is shown, passing cannot occur. How else can any car without a radio know that there wasn't an aborted start?? Again you cannot assume all have radios. And you can't have half the field at full throttle, and the rest following the flag they are supposed to obey.

Exactly how is a driver to know when and if the station is displaying information for this station and when a station is acting as back-up?

It isn't that complex. If you see yellow you are under yellow until you are within site of a station not showing yellow, and/or are past the incident.

[spawpoet]

And at this track, you can see. More importantly, the tradition and SOP (at most tracks) is that the story is "Between me and the next flag station, there is something." so unless you always wait until you reach the next flag station before making a pass, I'm going to call situational ethics.


Quick quiz:
Car hits the barrier, flips over it, bursts into fire. There are 2 fire trucks and an ambulance that have responded on the backside of the barrier attempting to put out the fire and extract the driver.

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

Standing yellow, and nobody can pass. If they have a backup yellow preceding this one nobody can pass between the stations either.

[MMiskoe]

Gee, what was one of the first complaints in this thread? Something about too many full course cautions, not enough racing? Gee, is this because WGI is sick of people not honoring yellows? So now they say 'We'll slow them down, where one is good two is better, or maybe just screw-em, get the pace car out there"

Go ahead pass under yellow. Pretty soon SCCA will adopt NASCAR rules which state that full course yellows will be thrown frequently and usually for situations that would otherwise be covered by a local yellow. Then we can all go out and do parade laps behind the pace car instead of racing. Go ahead & keep passing under yellow.

One pass under yellow that results in a corner worker getting killed will spell the end of local yellows in SCCA racing. Care to bet me on that one?

[Andy Bettencourt]

And at this track, you can see. More importantly, the tradition and SOP (at most tracks) is that the story is "Between me and the next flag station, there is something." so unless you always wait until you reach the next flag station before making a pass, I'm going to call situational ethics.

You can SEE the flag station yes. But you may not be seeing the incident. THAT IS WHAT THE FLAGS ARE TELLING YOU.

In your scenario, you pass because you see no incident between two yellows - therby creating some TOTALLY arbitrary amount of passing area (I guess it's from "where I saw" to the next station). Can you see the danger here? "Geez, I am sorry I totalled that car, I didn't SEE the incident so I pulled out to pass..."

No way, no how. It is not up to you to THINK there is no incident when you are surrounded by yellows.

Quick quiz:
Car hits the barrier, flips over it, bursts into fire. There are 2 fire trucks and an ambulance that have responded on the backside of the barrier attempting to put out the fire and extract the driver.

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

*I* am certainly not trained to answer that.

[jjjanos]

BZZZZT. Attempted "Red Herring"....a deflection of the original discussion. 10 yds. or 3 regional events probation.

Not a deflection. Just trying to see who actually understands the information being conveyed by the flags.

And your answer?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not a deflection. Just trying to see who actually understands the information being conveyed by the flags.

And your answer?

No that was not the question. I don't care WHAT creates a flag situation and what flags to throw, I just have to know how and where to put my car when I see those flags.

[joeg]

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

Hopefully a red flag

[jjjanos]

You can SEE the flag station yes. But you may not be seeing the incident. THAT IS WHAT THE FLAGS ARE TELLING YOU.

In your scenario, you pass because you see no incident between two yellows - therby creating some TOTALLY arbitrary amount of passing area (I guess it's from "where I saw" to the next station). Can you see the danger here? "Geez, I am sorry I totalled that car, I didn't SEE the incident so I pulled out to pass..."

You didn't answer the question. Do you always wait to pass until you reach the next flag station?

If not, how did you know that you are clear of the incident?

No way, no how. It is not up to you to THINK there is no incident when you are surrounded by yellows.

Sorry, but the GCR requires me to determine whether I am past "the incident." It does not direct me to wait until I reach the next flag station. It tells me that I cannot pass until the incident, thus, I have to determine whether this is the incident or not.

*I* am certainly not trained to answer that.

Fine, then what flag would you expect would be displayed?

[jjjanos]

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

Hopefully a red flag

Nope.