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Thread: WE MADE TARGET WHP!!!! (almost...)

  1. #1
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    Default WE MADE TARGET WHP!!!! (almost...)

    Shout out to Matt Kessler from Kessler Engineering (http://www.kesslerengineering.com/Dyno/Dyno.htm) and Mark from Applied Flow for all their smarts, help and work in getting "the little red civic" more powerful than ever!

    Taget whp for the civic: 132.8 whp

    We recorded 132.5 whp & 114 wtq, noon June 9, 2011!

    Sweet Jezus!

    Now if I can only learn how to drive.... It's been 10 months since I have been behind the wheel. June 17-18th at LRP will be interesing!
    Last edited by mossaidis; 06-10-2011 at 12:20 PM.
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
    '92 Honda Civic Si
    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

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    Really good numbers, and on a Dynapack unit too.
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

  3. #3
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    Cool... so now you have more power than Jeff's Saturn at 152 crank HP.

    Should be bad fast
    Brad
    1995 Mazda Miata (aka Black Betty)
    #13

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    114 for torque??? My refrigerator has more torque than that!!!





    he he he............




    .
    Jeff L

    ITA Miata



    2010 NARRC Champion

    2007 NERRC Championship, 2nd place
    2008 NARRC Championship, 2nd place
    2009 NARRC Championship, 2nd place

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    target meaning "process" I assume?

    nice dude!

    looks like my stocker ain't gonna cut it anymore... I've got that HP and 350 extra lbs! and my stump puller can't rev!



    and yea... I thought this was funny too!
    Quote Originally Posted by JLawton View Post
    114 for torque??? My refrigerator has more torque than that!!!





    he he he............




    .
    Last edited by CRallo; 06-10-2011 at 12:20 PM.
    Chris Rallo "the kid"
    -- "wrenching and racing" -- "will race for food!" -- "Onward and Upward"

  6. #6
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    Who needs torque when Honduhs will rev to 9000
    Ed Funk
    NER ITA CRX, ITB Civic, ITC CRX (wanna buy a Honda?)
    Smart as a horse, hung like Einstein!

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    LOL! rev limit is at 7800 and I will shifting at 7400. peak torque is at 5100 rpm. We should be able to raise the torque numbers given that we have the s300 which provides tuning in relation to throttle postion (or so I understand). So, I will keep my fingers crossed on mid-range power... after a few weekends.

    (Stupid electric motor f7%Ken joke, rat-rabid carriage-return-making-in-his-posts ITA-leaving-bastard ex-saturn-driving Jeff!!!).... So Mr Lawton, at least you can't say that your wheel nuts have more torque than my motor. at least I have more chp than your saturn... LOL!

    It's a d-series motor which is a work-horse which has more torque in relation to higher revving B's. Besides getting a solid built motor, having the 4.9 FD gave us a 15% boost across the entire rpm range. Still it's a Hunda.

    Chris! Ask me how many times I was chasing Max Lingenfeld's rear bumper on the straight-away at LRP???? HINT: "MANY" And once Max put that FD in, he walked away from me every lap. Your 240sx has lots of potential! And given that its ITA, we have lots cars in different stages of being built - plenty of competition at each layer of the pack!

    Matt is surgical yet the biggest surprise to this entire build was my injectors... I sent them to marren to get checked, cleaned and balanced. My mouth dropped when I got the results back... two injectors were bad, but not bad enough for me to take notice. Kevin Ruck ran into similar issues before ARRC in his DX. So send in your injectors to get checked out!!!! I am NOT a company spokeperson.
    Last edited by mossaidis; 06-10-2011 at 02:04 PM.
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
    '92 Honda Civic Si
    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

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    40% engine multiplier coming soon! LOL
    Jeremy Billiel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Billiel View Post
    40% engine multiplier coming soon! LOL
    That's not funny... Don't give the masses any ideas.
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
    '92 Honda Civic Si
    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mossaidis View Post
    That's not funny... Don't give the masses any ideas.
    If you were a fair, thoughtful, well respected IT driver you would also submit your engine specs and dyno sheets to the ITAC so that all cars can be equal.

    You should get no benefit of doing good work and beating the ITAC derived multiplier.

    Jeremy Billiel

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    LOL! I have not exceeded the ITAC derived multipler... I have simply met it with a proper built and lots of matched bolt-ons. I can post my build sheets and dyno output to ITAC w/o hestiation. So are you posting yours as well?

    EDIT: Oh yeah, you have no rat in this race... LOL! So can everyone else post their build sheets right? Shane? Andy? Funk? Jim? Tim? ...teehee
    Last edited by mossaidis; 06-10-2011 at 02:37 PM.
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
    '92 Honda Civic Si
    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Billiel View Post
    40% engine multiplier coming soon! LOL
    as i recall, the assumed mulitplier for the ITA honda is already over 40%.

    that is, if you take the weight and work backwards, you end up in the 42-44% range, iirc.
    1985 CRX Si competed in Solo II: AS, CS, DS, GS
    1986 CRX Si competed in: SCCA Solo II CSP, SCCA ITA, SCCA ITB, NASA H5
    1988 CRX Si competed in ITA & STL

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossaidis View Post
    EDIT: Oh yeah, you have no rat in this race... LOL!

    Ziiiiiing!!! Nice one!!


    Yeah, more guys are stepping it up in the North East. No winning with a half assed build!!


    .
    Jeff L

    ITA Miata



    2010 NARRC Champion

    2007 NERRC Championship, 2nd place
    2008 NARRC Championship, 2nd place
    2009 NARRC Championship, 2nd place

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    Quote Originally Posted by mossaidis View Post
    Shout out to Matt Kessler from Kessler Engineering (http://www.kesslerengineering.com/Dyno/Dyno.htm) and Mark from Applied Flow for all their smarts, help and work in getting "the little red civic" more powerful than ever!

    Taget whp for the civic: 132.8 whp

    We recorded 132.5 whp & 114 wtq, noon June 9, 2011!

    Sweet Jezus!
    You do realize that's like 152 whp on a dynojet...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Billiel View Post
    40% engine multiplier coming soon! LOL
    Sounds like it's going to be a 50% adder, or a reclass to ITS
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

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    Quote Originally Posted by tom91ita View Post
    as i recall, the assumed mulitplier for the ITA honda is already over 40%.

    that is, if you take the weight and work backwards, you end up in the 42-44% range, iirc.
    I believe 38% for the CRX si D16a6 engine. For the D16z6 (and probably the other VTEC D16's unless in IT it's 25% and for good reason... I have a 10/10th build and I am more or less there, within +/- 1 whp depending on the day, the dyno settings, etc.

    Here's the math.

    2270 lbs (process weight) - 50 lbs DW adder = 2220 lbs
    2220 lbs / 0.98 FWD subractor = 2265 lbs (if unadjusted)
    2265 lbs / 14.5 lb/chp ratio = 156.2 chp
    156.2chp * 0.85 standard driveline ratio loss = 132.7 process whp

    OR

    156.2 chp - 125 stock chp = 31.2 chp upgrade via IT allowed mods
    31.2 chp / 125 stock chp = 24.96% or ~ 25%
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
    '92 Honda Civic Si
    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z3_GoCar View Post
    You do realize that's like 152 whp on a dynojet...

    Sounds like it's going to be a 50% adder, or a reclass to ITS
    Quote Originally Posted by Z3_GoCar View Post
    Really good numbers, and on a Dynapack unit too.
    No more from you, "Z3_GoCar"... BANNED! j/k

    dynojets read 10% above packs and 10% above SAE reality - true? no idea.
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
    '92 Honda Civic Si
    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mossaidis View Post
    No more from you, "Z3_GoCar"... BANNED! j/k

    dynojets read 10% above packs and 10% above SAE reality - true? no idea.
    Get the smilie too

    There's a couple of threads in the tech section, the jet's generally 13% greater than a pack's reading. What does it mean? Don't know, and I've been thinking about it all morning. As far as tuning goes, the pack is the way to go and that's why I continue to use my dyno shop.
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

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    That's just not correct (about dynojets reading higher than dynapacks).

    All dynos have a variety of operator input corretion factors that can skew the results in any direction the owner wants. I've seen paks read lower than jets, and vicey versa.

    Only thing you can tune against is the same dyno.

    For the ITAC, we have to look long and hard at dyno data to make sure we get things right.
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffYoung View Post
    That's just not correct (about dynojets reading higher than dynapacks).

    All dynos have a variety of operator input corretion factors that can skew the results in any direction the owner wants. I've seen paks read lower than jets, and vicey versa.

    Only thing you can tune against is the same dyno.

    For the ITAC, we have to look long and hard at dyno data to make sure we get things right.
    Agreed that the "tuning paramaters" can be used to skew the dynojet's lower, but I'm sure you remember replying to this....

    Quote Originally Posted by underpressure View Post
    I typed this up for another forum last year. Enjoy.

    Preface:
    Ok I'm going to supply some information based upon my 13+years of working with chassis dynos. I'm going to keep this as factual as possible w/ as little bias as possible, I invite any of the other dyno reps to posts or shop owners who have a dyno.

    First off I will state my current position. I am the southeastern USA sales rep for Dyno Dynamics. In the past I have worked w/ dyno from various mfgs. All of these dynos I have had extensive experience with. Dyno Dynamics, Dynojet, Superflow, and Mustang. I have working knowledge of Roto-Pak, Dyna-Pak, Bosch, and Maha.

    This is key, an number is just that, a number.
    It doesn't matter wether a dyno reads 400hp on 1 mfg's dyno or 3 apples, 2 oranges, and a kumquat on some other mfg's dyno. A dyno is a tuning tool. The purpose of a dyno is to simulate real world conditions to help tuners. What is important is to see how change made to the vehicle affect it's power output. So your tuner makes a change and now you make 405hp or 3 apples, 2 oranges, and 2 kumquats.
    A gain is a gain, a loss is a loss, period.
    Numbers are only good for pissing matches and bench racing.

    Now on to the comparison:
    Here is how the various mfg dynos relate to one another. This is just a comparison of numbers output assuming the same vehicle on the dyno.

    The industry leader in number output by far is Dynojet. Their marketing in the mid-90's specifically used the larger output numbers as a selling item.

    Next is Mustang, generally about 7% less than Dynojet numbers.

    Superflow is about 3% less than Mustang.

    Dyna-Pak and Dyno Dynamics are about 3% less than Superflow.

    Ok lets make this point again to make sure it's clear. The SAME CAR on the DIFFERENT DYNOS. So our test vehicle output on the various dynos are as follows:

    Dyno Dynamics 200hp
    Superflow 206hp
    Mustang 214hp
    Dynojet 226hp

    This is assuming the dyno operator has not changed any of the parameters of the dyno. All of the dynos software incorporates parameters that are operator definable. These adjust the displayed power output. In other words the operator can "adjust" the output of the dyno to display any number desired. By adjusting weather station parameters, external corrections factors, inertia compensation, or any one of a dozen different factors the output number can be modified. The number can be modified to display anything from 10% of measure power to 300%. So our 200hp example vehicle can after a pull display peak power of 20hp or 600hp w/ just a couple of keystrokes.

    Key Fact: Just because the dyno spits out a number, it doesn't means squat without knowing ALL of the correction factors.

    Some dyno operators adjust the output of their dynos to closely match the highest numbers in the industry, Dynojet. This is not an attempt to defraud the customer. It is just that customers have a false notion that a bigger number means more power. But as you have seen, numbers mean nothing.

    If anyone has any questions about dyno operations or which type of dyno is better or worse please start another thread & I will be more than happy to answer any questions.
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

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    Damn dude! Excited about your car much?! Yo
    U are all over this thread!!! Its good to see man! I'm glad that you are psyched!



    Quote Originally Posted by mossaidis View Post
    Chris! Ask me how many times I was chasing Max Lingenfeld's rear bumper on the straight-away at LRP???? HINT: "MANY" And once Max put that FD in, he walked away from me every lap. Your 240sx has lots of potential! And given that its ITA, we have lots cars in different stages of being built - plenty of competition at each layer of the pack!
    How many?

    well his engine wasn't stock... Nissan built mine 22 years ago and someone gave it to me for free! That said, comparing my DL1 files to Andy's and Jeff's, it doesn't hold me back at LRP too much... My biggest issue is the slower corners, but Jeff already told me I'm going too fast on the back half of the track, even though I'm still taking it easy LOL BUT I've only driven my car at LRP in one session with good(but still not new) tires, so it will come... Work is conflicting with the June race and maybe the July race, but look for us at the NARRCoffs!
    Chris Rallo "the kid"
    -- "wrenching and racing" -- "will race for food!" -- "Onward and Upward"

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