16v Scirocco in ITA?

[bmw47]

Is this car competitive in ITA? I'm looking to get back into racing after a few years off and been looking for cars. Used to race a front running Miata in ITA but don't have the cash for that kind of car.
I found what appears to be a well sorted 87 Scirrocco, at minimum weight tons of spares. Ran a 2:49 at Road America (Not sure if that is fast or not) Love the car, just haven't seen one racing before.
Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Aaron

[Greg Amy]

It's probably a bit dated in terms of competitiveness; its primary competition will come from the 1.8L Miata and a few Honda products. At 2320# it's an attractive competitor, but you'll need to get at least 125 ponies to the ground to win, especially at fast tracks like Road America and Road Atlanta. It compares favorably to the Saturn SC2 at a similar weight and suspension design; Jeff Lawton has shown that setup to be a good one.

On the flip side it's a fun car to drive, dirt simple, and mechanically stout. There's still good support for the car in the aftermarket, and given your budget limitations it fits right in.

If the price is right, buy and enjoy it. - GA

[shwah]

The issue with the Scirocco is that it carries 100# more than the GTI with the exact same motor.
The Scirocco 16v does have the 1/2" bigger front brakes, but the 9.4s on the GTI can be made to work over a sprint race OK.

I think it is overweight. I think you could be competitive in some areas. It would likely take a pretty dedicated effort with a 1.8 GTI to get to IT Fest or ARRC level of competitiveness. It all depends on your goals.

I would recommend the 1.8 GTI over the 'rocco or 2.0 GTI in A.

[Lael Cleland]

The scirocco's windshield is laying back more & its much lower It may negate the 100lbs? I loved my Scirocco. The biggest issue I had was too much car for rabbit front bearings & hubs......The engines are tough!! Mine had 168000 miles and would not blow up!

I have always been an 8V guy for some stupid reason, I went back to a rabbit GTi....

[bmw47]

Thanks for the input guys. I had a 16v Scirocco as a street car about 15 years ago, so this is definitely a sentimental issue lol!!
The guy claims it has 126hp on a chassis dyno, so it might be front runner? He did mention that the front hub was the weak link, but every car I've raced had at least one thing that you had to keep an eye on.
The other option I have is an old Bilstein cup car. It's an 85 GTI ITB car, but it hasn't been raced in a while and the cage looks sketchy at best........
I definitely what to get to the ARRC this year just gotta figure out what car I want, probably over thinking it at this point.................

[Eric Parham]

Actually, the best VW 1.8L 16V for ITA would be the Jetta GLI, which came with the 256mm (10.1") front brakes in mid '89 and has better aero than the GTI.

I sent a letter to ITAC to get the correct GLI 1.8L 16V front brakes of 256mm (10.1") listed years ago, but it looks like they didn't do it. My Mom's still got an original one if anyone needs to document that, and those brakes are also listed in ETKA. I also asked ITAC to fix the rear brake specs for all the VW 16Vs to the correct 226mm (8.9"), but it looks like they didn't do that either. I don't know if the erroneous larger spec was used in classing or weighting of them. Although the GTI 16V came with 239mm (9.4") fronts, I think the 245mm (9.65") is allowed due to Golf Cup carryover, but not positive.

Unfortunately, I think all of the ITA VW 16Vs are overweight to be competitive against the current ITA competition. I know some cheaters ran 2L 16Vs disguised as 1.8L 16Vs years ago, and that might have spoiled it for everyone.

With the Scirocco 16V, the front hubs should be just as much of a weak link as they are on every other A1, perhaps more so due to the extra 200-300lbs tacked on for ITA. That said, I never had a single catastrophic hub failure using the stock small hubs on my Scirocco 8Vs, but I always over-tightened to 350-400 ft-lbs with thicker nuts to minimize nut-stripping, and re-checked torques every weekend.

[shwah]

The Scirocco 16v was the first VW offered with the 10.1" brakes.

[bmw47]

Ok guys I bought this car a couple weeks ago (cheap!) and with enough spares to almost build two more cars. After dissecting the ITCS I've come across a couple gray areas on this car and wanted some clarification.
1st. Both doors have been completely gutted with a cut-off tool including removal of the inner door handle mechanism on both sides. Will I need to get rid of these doors?

2nd. The blower motor and related duct work has been removed. Will this need to be reinstalled?

3rd. It has a MSD 6AL box. Couldn't determine if this was legal or not.
Any input would be appreciated.
Going to the next fun day at Nelson to shake it down, then race it!!!
Attached is a pic from the previous owner.

[Greg Amy]

1st. Both doors have been completely gutted with a cut-off tool including removal of the inner door handle mechanism on both sides. Will I need to get rid of these doors?

No, as long as you build your rollcage door bars to protrude into the door cavity. Do ensure that the door beam is still there, as you can't remove that.

2nd. The blower motor and related duct work has been removed. Will this need to be reinstalled?

Yes.

3rd. It has a MSD 6AL box. Couldn't determine if this was legal or not.

Yes.

GA

[GTIspirit]

2nd. The blower motor and related duct work has been removed. Will this need to be reinstalled?

No? The blower motor and related duct is part of the air conditioning system, right?

e. Air conditioning systems may be removed in whole or in part.
....

g. Engine coolant fluid, coolant/heater hoses and clamps may
be substituted. Heater hoses may be plugged. Heater water
control valve(s) may be added or substituted. Heater core and

hoses shall not be removed.

[Greg Amy]

No? The blower motor and related duct is part of the air conditioning system, right?

Here we go again... <insert rolleyes icon here>...

"Air conditioning system" generally refers to the system that uses a refrigerant to cool and dry the air inside the car. If your "air conditioning system" were an option, then you are free to remove all parts specific to that option, but since the heater system is a standard component in every car since the 1920's (or so), you need to re-install all the standard parts that may have been removed during that option install (blower motors, duct work, etc).

Some wags have proposed that a heater system also "conditions" the air, but I think any reasonable person would see that as intorturation of the rules. "A/C" refers to cooling.

And, to further support that premise, if that were not true then why have that section "g" that you added above? Because, if the heater system is truly part of the "air conditioning system", then section "g" would be wholly redundant, yes?

On a practical note, it's not smart to have a race car without a working windshield defog system, especially in climates where it might rain. Ask anyone how fun it is to race in the rain with a Bounty towel on the end of a popsicle stick for wiping the insides of the windshield...plus, the heater makes for a great additional water radiator in times of crisis...

GA

[shwah]

FYI the 16v Scirocco was sold new without air conditioning. Find those parts for your reinstall, as they are the lightest legal solution. Heater assembly, controls, alternator, and battery all may be different for AC cars - they are on the 8v GTI.

Don't know if the 16V GTI or GLI have the same option or not.

[Marcus Miller]

The blower and ducting can be removed if they interfere with the cage design, though yes?

[bmw47]

Thanks guys. I have all of the related heater pieces so it will just be a matter of reinstalling (how hard can that be lol). I ran a 90min race down at CMP a few years back, temps in the 50's and steady rain, the defost didn't help too much.....

[Eric Parham]

Could someone with late Scirocco and/or Golf II Bentley manuals and/or owners manuals check the listed compression ratios for the 1.8L (PL) and 2.0L (9A) engines. I'm looking at the ITA specs and they're all listed as 10:1, but I could have sworn that the PL was 10.1:1 and that the 9A was 10.8:1. I'm traveling so I can't check my own refs.

[Greg Amy]

My Bentley (1992 edition) shows PL @ 10.0:1, 9A @ 10.0:1.

GA

[Eric Parham]

Thanks. Maybe I'm getting senile, or maybe the Bentley's just wrong. At least that explains where the ITA numbers came from. Anyone have an Owner's Manual, particularly for the GTI/GLI 2L?

[shwah]

I have had the Scirocco and Golf bentleys, and they said 10:1.

Never found one to be that high stock though...