Racing Hubs for 85-87 hondas 1g/3g

[Buford]

1g/3g Hondas have been breaking stock hubs when they are raced with wide, high offset wheels and sticky tires/slicks. I am trying to get a Group Buy going to produce a run of race quality hubs as Hondas supply has been exhausted, so putting in new ones every season will not be an option.

I have been working with ICP Citation on this project.

They produce very high quality racing components and have many top racing teams as clients. They also produce the championship winning Citation formula cars.

They are proposing making the 1g/3g Hubs out of heat treated 4340 steel. These hubs will be bullet proof so you won't have to change them every season or every 8 races. They would also like to get a broach made to keep the costs down. Broaches are expensive to have made and has to be amortized against the first buy.

In order to get these made we will have to do a Group Buy with the usual down payment up front and final payment before shipping. This project will take several months to get drawings done, G Code created and have a broach made.

We need to build 10 sets (20 hubs) in order to keep the cost down Under $400 per hub.

Yes good parts and good material costs, but is cheap considering that the loss of a wheel at speed could mean the loss of the whole car and worse.

I would like to start a list of interested parties, so please PM me and I'll add your name to the list.
Just need to get a head count now so we can arrive at the best pricing possible.

I have also posted this on Redpepper and will post on the GT site so we can get as many people as possible to get in on this build. Please pass the word on.

Buford

[Knestis]

<insert appropriate question about IT legality here>

K

[preparedcivic]

<insert appropriate question about IT legality here>

K

Perusing the IT ruleset, all the words say are equivalent parts of the same material. a ferrous steel alloy is still iron.....whether it be cast or forged. An OEM part that was cryo'ed has had its molecular structure "optimized" to enhance durability. Is that the same material as it was? Nothing is in the GCR Appendix F beyond a definition of metal, which happens to be way looser than the variations on material I've outlined above.

To put as another example in simple terms on a throwaway part in applying this rule, is the metallurgy and weight identical between OEM, Brembo and chinese AutoZone rotors listed as direct fits for the same car?

[Richard Pare]

I am the guy who will be making the hubs.

I have an e-mail in to Dave Gomberg to get his take on the rules. In a quick read, there is an allowance for dimensionally identical aftermarket replacement parts, so it would seem that these new hubs would be allowed. I'll post Dave's answer when I get it.

I expect production to start on the smaller spline CRX hubs within the next few weeks, but there is a lead time of 6-8 weeks for the broach to be made. We would also need a new broach for the larger splined hubs, so that lead time needs to be allowed for also.

These new hubs will be a bit more than double the yield and fatigue strengths, which should but them up into the "bullet-proof" category.

If you have any questions, you can contact me directly at [email protected]

[Richard Pare]

Word back from Dave Gomberg is that the " same material" requirement in IT could possibly be a sticking point, but he's not sure, so has turned the question over to the IT experts.

In other classes (I have a lot of experience in the formula classes, but not here), 'Like Material" would mean that a "steel" part can be replaced with another "steel" part, but not with cast iron, titanium, plastic, etc.

My own opinion is that as long as the OEM hubs are "steel" and the replacement hubs are "steel" then they would be OK, but I have no experience in the way the rules in IT are interpreted. Hopefully he will get an answer back shortly, and when he does, I'll pass it along.

[Richard Pare]

Word back is that getting an answer is going to take a few weeks. Sorry. I'll update once we get something, one way or the other.

[Knestis]

I'd ask you to check with Gomberg, to see if I can whittle new connecting rods out of the "same material," too...

...but at the end of the day, he can issue any kind of opinion he wants and it won't guarantee that you'll survive the protest and appeals process, should someone call you on it.

K

[Buford]

Knestis,

The Purpose of the original post was to let Honda 1g/3g racers know that there would be some race quality hubs available. Period.

You jumped in and automatically assumed that some one in IT Honda's was going to cheat.

ICP Citation does Formula cars, not IT. Since your question about legality, he has asked SCCA about the legality issue in IT. He didn't have to take his precious time to do this and be up front in posting the answers.

For me, my Honda CRX ITA car was not legal after the first week we brought it home. legal in GT, lapping days and NASA for sure. We are not planning on running in any SCCA class. If I did it would be in a Formula car, like the last time I was in SCCA some 31 years ago.

Again, you assumed that this was for IT, FYI there are Honda IT racers that do more than SCCA race events,like NASA and solo classes where the hubs would be legal. Maybe they would like to be safer in those events.

I'm not putting my son in a car at speed with critical parts that routinely fail. Period.

Right now we have interest from guys in GT, Solo, Street (275hp to the front), and drag racing etc.

Also, What's with the German Flags?, Why no American flag? I hear that Vee Dubs are also breaking hubs, Why aren't you trying to fix that dangerious situation?

[Tom Blaney]

Buford
I am not sure it would be necessary to manufacture custom hubs. I have done the research on the 88-91 CRX pieces and have solved the same problem by heat treating (to a predefined hardness). I use only Honda OEM pieces (unused) and this has seemed to solve the problem. My shop can do the same with your stock items, and unless there is some unknown material flaw I suspect the problem would be solved.

Regarding the people who are bitchin about a rules violation, I suspect that should it get past their verbal dribble and they actually file a formal protest with the comp board, when the issue is reviewed and determined that the ONLY benefit would be safety (and the possible prevention of a tire flying off the car and the ensuing carnage), that the protest would not be well founded and the protest would be dropped.

Let me know if you would like to take this further.
Thanks

[Knestis]

...Also, What's with the German Flags?, Why no American flag? I hear that Vee Dubs are also breaking hubs, Why aren't you trying to fix that dangerious situation?

1. People keep asking me why I hate America.

2. We change the hubs before each long enduro when we change the bearings. We've never had either fail in any major way and I frankly have a hard time imagining a hub failing without the bearing going first.

3. This is improvedtouring.com - it was safe to assume you were talking about IT cars. You went to SCCA to ask for "clarification" on a rule, that frankly I don't think needs clarification.

4. The CRB has had dozens of requests for rules changes to addess super-dangrous, someone's-gonna-die parts, on lots of cars. The truth is that we are using parts harder than they were intended to be used and there are currently ways to mitigate every problem area.

5. As cars get older, parts get scarce. The category rules are not obligated to keep every car on the grid forever. That mindset helped put Production in the dumper for a couple of decades.

K

[Greg Amy]

Please see GCR 8.1.4, p61 in my online PDF version.

[JLawton]

Knestis,

The Purpose of the original post was to let Honda 1g/3g racers know that there would be some race quality hubs available. Period.

You jumped in and automatically assumed that some one in IT Honda's was going to cheat.

ICP Citation does Formula cars, not IT. Since your question about legality, he has asked SCCA about the legality issue in IT. He didn't have to take his precious time to do this and be up front in posting the answers.

For me, my Honda CRX ITA car was not legal after the first week we brought it home. legal in GT, lapping days and NASA for sure. We are not planning on running in any SCCA class. If I did it would be in a Formula car, like the last time I was in SCCA some 31 years ago.

Again, you assumed that this was for IT, FYI there are Honda IT racers that do more than SCCA race events,like NASA and solo classes where the hubs would be legal. Maybe they would like to be safer in those events.

I'm not putting my son in a car at speed with critical parts that routinely fail. Period.

Right now we have interest from guys in GT, Solo, Street (275hp to the front), and drag racing etc.

Also, What's with the German Flags?, Why no American flag? I hear that Vee Dubs are also breaking hubs, Why aren't you trying to fix that dangerious situation?

Knowing Kirk, I think he was making sure people understood this could be considered a questionable process and not looking to protest anyone. in fact, I'm sure if you had a decal on your car saying it had hardened hubs he still wouldn't care enough to protest it. He's also saying just because one person in SCCA (no matter who it is) says it's legit doesn't mean there couldn't be a protest and that it is up held by another group of people.

Tom, you know that if a part (or process) is protested, it ain't gonna be denied based on it being a "safety" issue. I'm not debating whether this is a legal process or not, but you can't justify something by playing the safety card. it's just like the BMW rear shock mounts that were being reinforced for "safety" reasons. It's bullshit.

We pick our cars, warts and all.

[Richard Pare]

The Board is supposed to meet in a couple of weeks, so hopefully they will have an answer for the legality question then.

[Richard Pare]

Looks like you'll have to wait a bit longer for a definitive answer on this. Apparently it was discussed by the IT advisory committee, with the opinion by most that they wouldn't be legal, but no definitive answer has been given as yet.