Head & Shoulder Restraint Kit

[924Guy]

The SCCA made two completely opposite rulings on the subject in 2009 (same people, same issue, different outcomes), with the latest not going into effect until 2012. It's a pretty good guess that things will change at least once between now and then.

So... no change on your end?

[gsbaker]

So... no change on your end?

Design change? No.

[mr. black]

So what's the verdict? You guys are scaring the hell out of the newbie who needs to buy one of theses things. Isaac becuase of it's lateral protection, HANS because of rep, Defnder because is offers a little of both for the price, or Rage because is supposedly offer the best lateral protection and does not rely on the belts at all? It would seem the best idea would be to get rid of the potetnial liablity all together. I don't know as much about the Rage as the others, but it looks like the likes of John Force uses it. And we've seen his monsterous wrecks. I'm buying a right side net as well, but not another seat. Smart words about the most fun you do and not the last.

[Darryl Pritchett]

My money is on the Hybrid Rage Pro for $595 you can't beat it. SFI rated, great protection and very comfortable. Will be getting one very soon.. There are also more NASCAR truck series guys wearing it now also as well as Force and many other NHRA guys.

[gsbaker]

So what's the verdict? You guys are scaring the hell out of the newbie who needs to buy one of theses things. Isaac becuase of it's lateral protection, HANS because of rep, Defnder because is offers a little of both for the price

Two recommendations, depending on your situation:

1) If you want maximum safety (including egress) and you intend to keep everything until old age puts you in a nursing home, get a high quality seat -- without the head surround/halo -- and use an Isaac Intermediate, or Titanium if you feel flush.

2) If you want the best short-term value package, keep your existing seat and get an Isaac Link ($199) and a side net. You're in for <$300. If you change anything later you can always sell these to a buddy.

...or Rage because is supposedly offer the best lateral protection

Key word is "supposedly." It's easy for a manufacturer to publish test results, yet some companies refuse to do it. If I said I was the fastest guy at the track, would you want to know my lap times?

...and does not rely on the belts at all?

If you lose you the belts you have a bigger problem than head injuries, which is why a H&N restraint that engages the belts is a good thing.

[Darryl Pritchett]

Why would anyone buy a unit that is not SFI rated and will be rendered useless in a year or two. NASA, PBOC all require a SFI 38.1 unit and SCCA is soon to follow. Buy one that meets the requirements and be done with it.

If people would stop buying the NON SFI 38.1 units now they would be forced to make a choice. Go out of business or redesign theirs to meet the requirements.

[EV]

Why would anyone buy a unit that is not SFI rated and will be rendered useless in a year or two. NASA, PBOC all require a SFI 38.1 unit and SCCA is soon to follow. Buy one that meets the requirements and be done with it.

If people would stop buying the NON SFI 38.1 units now they would be forced to make a choice. Go out of business or redesign theirs to meet the requirements.

Perhaps the hope that the powers that be will allow a non-SFI restraint system that's been tested to be better than some of the other more popular brands before the deadline.

[924Guy]

Of course, that's a helluva gamble to take these days, with your own money...

[Darryl Pritchett]

Well I am far from being an expert and do not claim to know which one is better then the other. I am also not saying I agree with the SFI but unfortunately in life if we want to play in their sand box we have to play by their rules or go find another sand box to play in. With that in mind though the single point release rule has been in effect long before this debate started and is probably there for very valid reason.

[gran racing]

I agree. I'd prefer just on release point but there are comprimises with all systems out there. When looking at them, I evaluated which had comprimises that I felt would impact me the least. I personally put a heavier weight on side impacts than I did a fire where I'm knocked out and corner workers couldn't get both release points off and didn't have a knife to cut the belts. I feel with the car I drive, it's much more likely that I'd suffer a crash than a fire that go inside the cockpit of the car. That's just me though.

[EV]

<Snip> With that in mind though the single point release rule has been in effect long before this debate started and is probably there for very valid reason.

How does the Issacs violates the single point release anymore than your coolsuit connection, radio connection or fresh air connection?

On edit: Also, why does Hans offer "quick disconnects" to their device? Because it impedes egress maybe?

[gsbaker]

It's important to keep in mind the original intent of this old single release rule. Written at a time when there was very little safety equipment in the car -- no side nets, winged seats or H&N restraints you had to wear -- the general idea was that getting out of the seat is good enough, and back then it was true. Getting out of the seat meant you could get out of the car.

This is not true today, and drivers using SFI-designed H&N restraints have been trapped in burning cars: http://www.isaacdirect.com/SFI.html. (Was the SCCA driver who burned to death at Daytona last year was using an SFI design?)

We sell product to people who cannot, under any circumstances, exit their car using an SFI-design product. Meanwhile we have never had an Isaac product returned because of concern about egress. Never. Ask someone who uses an Isaac product about this, and then ask yourself why the people who complain about Isaac and single release have never used it. It's laughable; it's like a virgin complaining about sex.

Safety advances in motorsports are never incremental, so here's what will happen:

1. An Isaac user will have their Isaac taken away from them.
2. They will be forced to use an SFI design.
3. They will have a fire or side impact, or lose their shoulder belts.
4. They will die (or end up a quad).
5. The SCCA will get sued into the next dimension.
6. The jury, which has never heard of SFI, will find gross negligence.
7. The gross negligence finding means there is no insurance.
8. SCCA tanks.

Then the rules will change.

(That's the "lite" version.)

Think this isn't already being set up?

http://www.fortheracer.com/

[gsbaker]

Also, why does Hans offer "quick disconnects" to their device? Because it impedes egress maybe?

I've heard that's their most popular option.

[gran racing]

Gregg, did you just create that site?

[gsbaker]

Gregg, did you just create that site?

I have a good idea where it came from: http://www.forthepeople.com/

[mr. black]

GBaker I see your point but what is the problem with having your equipment certified? I honestly don't know. It would seem if you did, from your perspective you would and do have the best product out there and a SFI rating would seal the deal.

As for your points

1. No one will take away anybody's equipment
2. Yes you would be forced to use SFI if you want to play in the sandbox, just like our suits, gloves, helmets etc.
3. Side impact worries me for the same reasons as gran racing, if your belts come off (as you said) you have bigger issues to contend with and that would make the Rage a better product than all of them, and as for fire; that's why even in the current issue of Grassroots, practicing egress is stressed. The racer (forget name) got out with burns to his hands. But he got out. You really shouldn't find out that you have problem getting out with a SFI H&N during an actual fire.
4. Maybe with pratice 4 can be skipped. But no amount of equipment takes that out of the equation. If it did, most of would probally just go ride roller coasters instead anyway.
5-8. I find a stretch considering how long the SCCA has been around and how much safety stuff has happened.

Again, what's the deal with getting your product certified? Expensive?

[Darryl Pritchett]

(Was the SCCA driver who burned to death at Daytona last year was using an SFI design?)

In regards to the driver who burned to death at Daytona. It was in no way a result of any kind of head & neck restraint system. I was there and my wife saw him pulled out of the car. His issue was he had tie wrapped his onboard fire system lever and could not pull it and was reluctant to stop the car when he first knew of the fire. He started catching fire in turn 3 and proceeded all the way around to pit entrance. Not sure if he kept trying to pull the lever and when he realized he could not it was already too late. But to throw that into a comment that it might have been his head & neck restraint system that caused him not to be able to get out of the car is just wrong.

[gsbaker]

(Was the SCCA driver who burned to death at Daytona last year was using an SFI design?)

In regards to the driver who burned to death at Daytona. It was in no way a result of any kind of head & neck restraint system. I was there and my wife saw him pulled out of the car. His issue was he had tie wrapped his onboard fire system lever and could not pull it and was reluctant to stop the car when he first knew of the fire. He started catching fire in turn 3 and proceeded all the way around to pit entrance. Not sure if he kept trying to pull the lever and when he realized he could not it was already too late. But to throw that into a comment that it might have been his head & neck restraint system that caused him not to be able to get out of the car is just wrong.

We heard that too, but we also heard from witnesses that there may have been an egress issue once he stopped. This is all second-hand info at best, so it doesn't help the discussion.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that drivers have been trapped in burning cars when forced to wear a H&N restraint. Had there been an egress issue at Daytona and the SFI mandate were in effect, the survivors could have brought a claim. Had an SFI mandate been in effect when Dr. Zimmerman was killed, the survivors could have brought a claim. Had an SFI mandate been in effect when the NASA driver broke his neck, he could have brought a claim, precisely because our design is excluded by the spec.

Every single time a driver has been trapped in a burning car by a H&N restraint it has been an SFI design, whereas an Isaac product can be left behind. What makes this difficult to understand?

The present SCCA rule must go back 40 years and has not kept pace with safety advances. Does SCCA ban inside nets? They require an extra release if you need to bail out the passenger side, right? If it would just accept RSI specs all the problems go away. All of them.

[gsbaker]

GBaker I see your point but what is the problem with having your equipment certified? I honestly don't know. It would seem if you did, from your perspective you would and do have the best product out there and a SFI rating would seal the deal.

The two are mutually exclusive. The SFI spec is low performance; it is the equivalent to putting a propeller on a jet engine. All the data proves it. We would have to detune our design to meet that spec.

As for your points

1. No one will take away anybody's equipment
2. Yes you would be forced to use SFI if you want to play in the sandbox, just like our suits, gloves, helmets etc.

So, which is it? You can't have it both ways. If there is an SFI-only mandate, SCCA drivers will have their Isaac systems taken away.

3. Side impact worries me for the same reasons as gran racing, if your belts come off (as you said) you have bigger issues to contend with and that would make the Rage a better product than all of them

The manufacturer will not release test data for the Rage. For all we know it increases head loads.

...and as for fire; that's why even in the current issue of Grassroots, practicing egress is stressed. The racer (forget name) got out with burns to his hands. But he got out. You really shouldn't find out that you have problem getting out with a SFI H&N during an actual fire.

Agreed. Most people who have a problem getting out with an SFI design find out day one, then hope they don't have a fire.

5-8. I find a stretch considering how long the SCCA has been around and how much safety stuff has happened.

That's an interesting point. In an simple scenario I would tend to agree, and plaintiff lawyers will normally start something like this with a test case or two. But if they believe they can convince a jury that parties have colluded to trade safety for money (which is how they would pitch it), the SCCA will only be a co-defendant. GM, which did testing stateside, Daimler, which did testing in Europe, every manufacturer/member of SFI, every sanctioning body/member of SFI, all 200+ HANS distributors, and the guy trying to sell you that Rage will be co-defendants.

Sure that's the extreme case, but if the target is juicy enough any mildly competent plantiff firm will do it because it costs nothing to add a name to the list. Trust me; I've been involved in 100+ mass tort cases on the defendant side.

Why take the risk?

Again, what's the deal with getting your product certified? Expensive?

Racing is cheap. Our background is aerospace and medical devices, where getting something out the door for less than $1MM is a good day. The data, from both the test labs and the track, forces us to conclude that the SFI design is dangerous vis-a-vis our design. It's very simple: We are not going to kill drivers just to make a buck.

[AjG]

How exactly is the Isaac released? Can the two push pins on the helmet just be pulled or do the buttons have to be pushed to unlock the pins? Is there video somewhere of someone getting out of a car with the Isaac system?