Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 43

Thread: Nothing is official 'till Fastrack is released?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Black Rock, Ct
    Posts
    9,594

    Default

    Dan, (everyone else skip this, it's old news to you, LOL!)
    The cliff note version: years ago cars were classed without a process/structure. Curb weight, how people think the car did in SS, and other nebulous factors were used, resulting in some classifications that didn't jive. Post classification rules changes benefited some cars more than others. Some of us used the net to discuss that here on this site, about 6+ years ago. Eventually, we had a mass of direction/interest and many of us wound up on the ITAC, the govering committee of IT.

    A Process was created, and there was "the Great Realignment" (tGR) about 5 years ago. tGR affected 20 or so 'worse case offenders' and moved them into line with a structure that had as it's foundation, performance targets for each class. The Process used a formula of sorts, with adders for a cars physical elements to predict performance and align it with the performance target for the class. Essentially it uses stock HP as a starting point as discussion and analysis revealed that it was the best predictor of IT power. Different engines get different factors, then the other modifications are made for suspension, etc. Weight is the operative unit.

    For 5 years, we adjusted cars on a case by case basis, usually baed on member requests. "Please review XYZ, it doesn't seem to jive with other cars in the class" is the typical request. As time passed, the Process was sharpened, and loose ends were attended to. This summer we rolled out "V.2.0", which removed areas where repeatability wasn't great, added evidentiary standards and buttoned things down generarlly. Like V.1.0 it's goal was to answer the members desires for repeatability, transparncy and fairness. The differences in terms of the weight the process spit out were nil for a median ITB, or ITA car. FWD adder was adjusted in the highest class, IIRC. Other than that, it was a buttoned up version of what we'd been doing for 5 years.

    Through this period, the CRB (our immediate bosses, they answer to the BoD, and the BoD answers to you) was complicit and supportive of our actions. This past summer though, they objected to a number of recommendations we made, and held them in limbo, unknown to us. Eventually it was learned that they were at odds with the recommendations, and indeed, our methods. This was a 180 degree shift in the situation. Then they told us we could no longer adjust cars....at all. We then drafted responses to be published in Fastrack for all the requests/cars that we'd recommended already (some were on the books for more than 9 months by now) stating that we "Don't adjust cars". That never made the publication, and the CRB reversed the position, and we did the adjustments over again.

    Some stuck, and have been published. Others have been rejected. Others have been sent back to the ITAC and we have been given options "X class or nothing, instead of Y class". And still others have been processed, but the weights the Process produced, and the ITAC recommended (to keep everything in line, consistent and balanced) have been changed by the CRB to weights they think are better.

    The CRB stated, on the last con call, theat, essentially they absolutely do not support the core of the Process, which is stock HP. They feel displacement is a factor that must be considered more extensively. When making a recommendation for a cars weight, they instructed the ITAC to "Make it make sense" when compared to other similar cars. For example, a recommendation for a 2.0L car should "line up with" other 2.0L cars already listed.

    The ITAC feels that a 2.0L car that has 120hp stock will not compete well with a 2.0L car with 140hp stock, all other things being equal, and using displacement to "line things up" is a bad path to follow.

    The ITAC looks back at 5 years of the Process and finds it has resulted in far better equity and competition, that the category has perhaps ever seen, and notes that the clauses in the rulebook that allow the ITAC to adjust a cars weight because of "overdog domination" have never needed to be used. In other words, the Process is working.

    Note that this "Predict, run the numbers, set and essentially forget" methodology is absolutely the opposite of whats been done for the entire existence of the club. Weight adjustments have occurred nearly exclusively as a result of on track observations, mostly at the Runoffs. Also note that the IT category is much different than the other categories in the club, with a 300+ model count to administer, and no singular event with full tech to evaluate performance. Our category is fundamentally different, and requires a different approach.

    The CRB has vacillated of late, dramatically at times, but seems to be settling on an approach that is "old school", and uses "What we think we know" to 'adjust" cars. The ITAC is ..or was...philosophically opposed to such an approach, and the overwhelming input of it's members agrees.

    I say "was" because this past 10 week period has seen the resignation of half the body, including Andy, the chairman. It's safe to say the resignations have come as protests over CRB actions or edicts, and the conflict those actions and edicts have placed ITAC members in with relation to the members.

    Our members want clear communication and a transparent process. They want the Process published. A 'gag order' was sent to the ITAC, (Later it is suspected, but has not been confirmed, that it was not representative of the entire CRB, but of one member sending a warning) and Kirk resigned, citing the the members first principals of transparency and communication..

    Our members have been clear that they support the Process and want it applied fairly across the board. Recent actions by the CRB of changing recommendations to suit their position, but ignoring the Process recommendation, as well as clear position statements denouncing the core of the Process, as well as the inability to suggest a method that meets our members principals of repeatability, transparency and fairness, as well as other issues, led to the resignation of the other three.

    Of the remaining members on the ITAC, it isn't for me to say what their position is. I know they are troubled by the events, and I know that they want to serve the members and the category.

    So, that's where we stand.

    This has obviously been a drawn out event, and all the situations I've mentioned have been discussed heavily, and there is more specific information in many threads. V.2.0 has been 'published" over on RRAX.com.
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Colchester, CT, USA
    Posts
    2,120

    Default

    Holy christ Dan, ya been livin' under a rock???





    Don't worry, your car is light enough!!!
    Jeff L

    ITA Miata



    2010 NARRC Champion

    2007 NERRC Championship, 2nd place
    2008 NARRC Championship, 2nd place
    2009 NARRC Championship, 2nd place

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Black Rock, Ct
    Posts
    9,594

    Default

    I know....I gave Dan the benefit of the doubt. But I aint typing all THAT again!
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Eddie,

    Will be nice to have you in ITA. I just finished putting in a new cage, and I should be done converting my Miata over to ITA by the end of the month. I'll get to the first competition school that I can find after that. Will you just be running Track Trials or do you plan on running some club races also?

    Andy,

    What kind of weight did you guys saddle poor Eddie's car with for ITA?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Black Rock, Ct
    Posts
    9,594

    Default

    The 528? It was recommended to the CRB at 2550. I imagine that's what they will approve.
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Hi Joe! Good to talk to you. Hope you had a good winter.

    I have been working here and there to get the car up to speed. My goal is to try and run all the TT this season for SCDIV. As you saw last year the car was about a second off you guys CSP Miata's for TT. I still had weight that needed to be removed. I believe it’s about 100lbs lighter this year. I still need to finish the cage as its still at 4 points. I wasn't going to pursue adding more than TT equipment until I heard if it would be classed or not.

    2550 weight will never be attainable. I know that and I'm sure most of you do also.

    When I started this project over a year ago I was running solo events with it stock. I knew little about cars period. I spent a lot of time reading, understanding cars and racing in general. Besides online racing I’ve never been in a racecar, but it transferred over into real life racing pretty easily as you Joe saw during last year’s TT's.

    The car may never (and probably will never) be a front runner. It may be a mid pack car, it may not. A lot depends on the driver and his skill, not just the equipment. Overall I have enjoyed learning, testing and driving my car. It’s something I built myself and I've enjoyed every minute of it. If I wanted a class winning car I would have bought one like a lot of people do. That's not my style.

    If the cars approved for ITA I can accept that. I will continue to build the car to IT specs and plan to race on a competitive level one day.

    I have seen that my request has caused dissention in the ranks between a lot of people. I want to thanks you all for what you do for this organization and its members. Joe, you guys at SCR have done a great job getting TT going and helping beginners like myself. I thank you and look forward to many years racing in the SCDIV.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    newington, ct
    Posts
    4,182

    Default

    Eddie, the debate on how things are handled such as the car you requested to have classed is just on piece of straw on the pile.

    As long as you're having fun out there, that's what matters.
    Dave Gran
    Real Roads, Real Car Guys – Real World Road Tests
    Go Ahead - Take the Wheel's Free Guide to Racing

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    West Hurley, NY
    Posts
    388

    Default

    Thanks for the history lesson Jake. Sorry to have made you type all that. It is very informative. However in my defence being a relative newbie I have been concentrating on getting my car squared away and learning how to drive. This is by itself daunting enough without getting involved in organizational issues. The depth of these discussions require other than just a passing knowledge of how the CRB, ITAC and BoD groups are supposed to work. Also I am in SCCA for the fun of racing and you guys have to put up with too much B.S. and aggravation. I do understand someone is needed in that capacity to support the general racing population and to be really honest I am glad its not me.
    Even though I have known Andy, Jake and some others who have supported IT only briefly it is clear IT drivers are losing great assets in the fight. Sorry to see you leave the ITAC.
    REMEMBER 2010 has been declared " Be kind to a newbie year".
    Dan Deyo
    92 Acura Integra
    ITA #94

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    West Hurley, NY
    Posts
    388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JLawton View Post
    Holy christ Dan, ya been livin' under a rock???





    Don't worry, your car is light enough!!!
    A certain Ct. master car builder we all know might have a different idea.
    Dan Deyo
    92 Acura Integra
    ITA #94

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Flagtown, NJ USA
    Posts
    6,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Knestis View Post
    Add it to the list.

    Seriously. I just get to the point where I start to be less worried and we get some stupid thing like, "it doesn't LOOK like an ITB car."

    K
    Exactly. Maybe it's time for someone to write in again and request that they remove their heads from their asses again.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Colchester, CT, USA
    Posts
    2,120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wepsbee View Post
    REMEMBER 2010 has been declared " Be kind to a newbie year".
    Hmmmmmm. I don't think going into your third year of racing makes you a newbie any more. And we have been going easy on you!!
    Jeff L

    ITA Miata



    2010 NARRC Champion

    2007 NERRC Championship, 2nd place
    2008 NARRC Championship, 2nd place
    2009 NARRC Championship, 2nd place

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    West Hurley, NY
    Posts
    388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JLawton View Post
    Hmmmmmm. I don't think going into your third year of racing makes you a newbie any more. And we have been going easy on you!!
    I was hoping to stretch it out as far as I could!!! I guess I might be in trouble this year then I will have to get Matt to get me some extra something from somewhere.
    Dan Deyo
    92 Acura Integra
    ITA #94

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Black Rock, Ct
    Posts
    9,594

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wepsbee View Post
    I was hoping to stretch it out as far as I could!!! I guess I might be in trouble this year then I will have to get Matt to get me some extra something from somewhere.
    That extra something from somewhere is in the car, real low, close to the middle of the seat, right where the sub straps go through.

    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  14. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    West Hurley, NY
    Posts
    388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lateapex911 View Post
    That extra something from somewhere is in the car, real low, close to the middle of the seat, right where the sub straps go through.

    HMMMMMMMMM. Oh I get it now Right you are, confidence is building, the rest will follow.
    Dan Deyo
    92 Acura Integra
    ITA #94

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    7,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wepsbee View Post
    HMMMMMMMMM. Oh I get it now Right you are, confidence is building, the rest will follow.
    Lemme drive that motha.
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    West Hurley, NY
    Posts
    388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    Lemme drive that motha.
    i am planning on exactly that. The car will be getting a couple of upgrades and then I would like to attend a test day at NHMS. That will be your chance!!!!
    Dan Deyo
    92 Acura Integra
    ITA #94

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wepsbee View Post
    The car will be getting a couple of upgrades and then I would like to attend a test day at NHMS. That will be your chance!!!!
    When was the last time Bettencourt even sat in a front-wheel-drive car?? Hell, I'm not sure he even knows what one is; he just thinks FWD is some kinda voodoo percentage-remover in a weight calculation spreadsheet...

    Nope, I'm your guy for a test day.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    7,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    When was the last time Bettencourt even sat in a front-wheel-drive car?? Hell, I'm not sure he even knows what one is; he just thinks FWD is some kinda voodoo percentage-remover in a weight calculation spreadsheet...

    Nope, I'm your guy for a test day.
    Luckily, I get to wrestle one every day. Let's both drive. Slow lap pays the other guys entry for the weekend...I like that.
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    Luckily, I get to wrestle one every day. Let's both drive. Slow lap pays the other guys entry for the weekend...I like that.
    Ooooo! A throw-down! I'm in, Rowdy! Even better, it's not OUR car we'll ball up in the process!


  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Black Rock, Ct
    Posts
    9,594

    Default

    Dan's reaction reading what he has wrought:
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •