National Class

[jhooten]

I heard the lynch ropes being pulled out when, as a point of argument in the runoffs qualifying debate, I suggested that we do away with the two tier system and treat all classes the same and send them all to the national championships.

[mossaidis]

We're just "regional drivers", what the hell do we know anyway? We're the equivalent of oval dirt track driving, beer drinking drivers to NASCAR drivers. Psst... regional drivers. The classification system sounds more NYC housing situation before mandatory low-income housing was placed into regulation. Perhaps SCCA will "show us" around the runoffs like boy scouts at LRP.

Feeling cynical,
Mickey

[mossaidis]

...I suggested that we do away with the two tier system and treat all classes the same and send them all to the national championships.

I agree. How can someone argue that IT is not a nationally recognized class? It is... therefore it should be included into the Runoffs.

[StephF]

We're just "regional drivers", what the hell do we know anyway? We're the equivalent of oval dirt track driving, beer drinking drivers to NASCAR drivers. Psst... regional drivers. The classification system sounds more NYC housing situation before mandatory low-income housing was placed into regulation. Perhaps SCCA will "show us" around the runoffs like boy scouts at LRP.

Feeling cynical,
Mickey

Why would anyone worry about being a "regional" driver rather than a "national" one? And why would anyone feel like they are less because their class is a regional one??
There's some damn good drivers in IT. And there have been many who went on to be pro from here too. That's nothing to hang your head over.
If you run 4 events a year or more, you still get a National license. Doesn't matter what you class you run in, YOU are still licensed nationally.

We have the ARC, IT Fest, Pro IT, enduros, etc. If anyone really wants to do the Runoffs now, you can go with STU, or run something that's Nationally qualified.
It's not like we are sitting out here in the backyard with a few random scraps for races to eat while the house dogs are getting Alpo inside.

This subject has been done to death (usually during the bench racing months) with the exact same result every time. Some people want it, some don't. Maybe someday that will change to a national class, but for now, it is what it is.

And shwah, don't put words in my mouth. I told the OP that was the Cliff's notes version as I understood it. I really don't care either way, and don't care to see myself "quoted" like that. If those are your feelings, then you own your words.

[mossaidis]

Oh Steph, my facebook friend... my comments were part fun part serious. I never hang my head, well unless I eat too much chocolate cake and get a belly ache. I will correct myself and say this is a regional ONLY class vs national available class issue. Sorry to mislead.

Again STU <> IT (that's a not equal sign for you non-SQL heads). No reason why IT as it is, albeit with revised weights (doh!), should not be a national class. Why was it designed to be a regional only class? Folks wanted to have fun without the expense and those sophicated ruling members wanted nothing to do with it at a National level, true? no idea. I do know that running competitively in SS means *usually* means buying a newer car and unfortunetaly w/o the fun and speed of IT trimmings... (mickey DUCK!). I pick IT over buying a new Civic Si SSB anyday.

[Knestis]

I heard the lynch ropes being pulled out when, as a point of argument in the runoffs qualifying debate, I suggested that we do away with the two tier system and treat all classes the same and send them all to the national championships.

I'm confident that you'd find some support among IT drivers for that idea. Me, for one.

K

[lateapex911]

I'm confident that you'd find some support among IT drivers for that idea. Me, for one.

K

Me, for two. The world has changed a lot since the implementation of that system, and it's antiquated now. With racing series being run by all the marque clubs, Porsche, BMW etc), the SCCA needs to get in tune with the times. While it will be argued that it might/might not be good for IT drivers, the club as a whole would benefit.

[tnord]

even this guy is in favor of IT "going national" if it means doing away with the regional/nat'l structure and the top TWENTY classes go to the runoffs.

actually....i might have to adjust that view....we need to get rid of some classes on the whole.

[Greg Amy]

Travis, I'm with you as long as it results in twenty GROUPS at the Runoffs.

The real issue with limiting classes is time available for groups...I like what they're doing this year, in that they're combining classes into groups for the last xx lowest-attended classes. They didn't make the numbers? Fine, let 'em run, just don't decrease the track time for the groups that did.

I used to be against IT going National...not so much any more. There's just no way I.T. woulda gotten much more expensive for me when I decided to do it "right"...now, eh...

[shwah]

And shwah, don't put words in my mouth. I told the OP that was the Cliff's notes version as I understood it. I really don't care either way, and don't care to see myself "quoted" like that. If those are your feelings, then you own your words.

Your post suggested that the opinions that you placed in it were the opinions of the IT racing community. I just pointed out that there are other view points. Some see it one way, others see it another way.

Didn't mean to offend. Sorry about that.

[shwah]

I'm confident that you'd find some support among IT drivers for that idea. Me, for one.

K

+1 here

This is why I dropped the whole IT national thing before. I realized that there was a bigger issue. Running two separate club racing series dilutes driver attendance and competition, dilutes worker attendance and/or increases worker burnout, and creates additional financial exposure to regions. All the while making the whole program that much more confusing to potential new members.

[Bill Miller]

SM pro motors are as little as $5000. i'd love to find a built ITA motor for $833-$1250. shit, i'm pretty sure i'll spend that on just my ECU and dyno time.....for i expect <2hp peak.

and for any of those areas where you think IT people are spending more than the national guys, that might be true for the lower competition, lesser subscribed classes....but is irrelevant to what would happen should IT go national.

Travis,

Try to pay attention. Where did I say that a Pro SM motor cost that much more than an ITA motor?

The bigger question is, why does it start at $5k for what you can get from MazdaSpeed for ~$2k, when they're supposed to be 'spec' motors. And since a Pro SM motor starts at $5k, please tell me how many of the first 10 cars on the Runoffs SM grid were running those motors?

Regarding how much fun someone has in their race, if you're running at the front of your class, do you care if there are 5 cars in your class, or 25 cars in your class?

As far as the whole Regional/National thing, and the IT going National thing, count me as another one that agrees w/ what Kirk posted. I've been saying pretty much the same thing for a couple of years now.

[tnord]

It's also why you pay 4x - 6x more for a 'pro' SM motor than you do a crate motor from MazdaSpeed.

Mazdaspeed Crate ~$2500
$2500 x 4 = $10,000
$2500 x 6 = $15,000

And since a Pro SM motor starts at $5k, please tell me how many of the first 10 cars on the Runoffs SM grid were running those motors?

2 of the top 3.

Regarding how much fun someone has in their race, if you're running at the front of your class, do you care if there are 5 cars in your class, or 25 cars in your class?

yes. i feel a greater sense of accomplishment when i beat 25 people rather than 5. but you're probably one of "those guys" who feels like a winner in a 2 car field.

[924Guy]

I'd much rather beat 2-3 guys like Beran, Schaafsma, Spencer, Moore, etc, than a field of 10 or 20 uncompetitive cars with uncompetitive drivers. Had enough of both to know the difference, but one's definitely much more of a challenge than the other.

It's quality, not quantity.

[tnord]

I agree Vaughan, but in general, if there's a field of 20, at least a couple of those guys are going to be a "Beran" or "Schaafsma" etc.

[lateapex911]

Quality over quantity every time.

[Bill Miller]

Mazdaspeed Crate ~$2500
$2500 x 4 = $10,000
$2500 x 6 = $15,000



2 of the top 3.



yes. i feel a greater sense of accomplishment when i beat 25 people rather than 5. but you're probably one of "those guys" who feels like a winner in a 2 car field.

The point is, why does a supposed 'spec' motor from a pro builder start at 2x what you can get one from the mfg for?

Which 2 of the top 3, and who's motors? If that's really the case, one of two things is going to happen. Either the guys charging more than $5k for a SM engine are going to lower their prices (or get out of the SM engine business) or the shop that's selling those $5k Runoffs' podium engines is going to raise their prices.

When was the last time you won a race in a field of 25 ITA or SM cars? Point is, if you're running at the front, it doesn't matter if you've got 5 or 25 guys behind you. You're ahead of them on the grid, and you usually don't see them unless you're lapping them. As others have pointed out, it's about the quality of the guys you're racing against, not quantity. And while I agree that you stand a better chance of having more quality drivers/cars in a larger field, it doesn't mean you can't have good racing in a small field. But even at the Runoffs, you get guys that run away from the enitre field. I think it was not that many years ago where the T1 winner lapped the ENTIRE FIELD.

[tnord]

Drago -Stewart Engines iirc (http://classifieds.specmiata.com/detail.php?id=2252)
Pombo - Rossini

haven't even bothered to count who else in the top 10 had what.

i don't think we've had a 25 car ITA field around here since i started. the last race i ran, and won, was 14 iirc, and i think i won an ITA race with 17 as well in my old SM. is there tougher competition in 8 car fields elsewhere? probably. but that's a whole nother issue.

i was sitting outside turn one at that T1 race, where Lux (who was leading iirc) got a flat, Heinricy was taken out, and there was another significant incident right in front of me. i think 5 of the top 6 DNF'd or something like that.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't even know what you guys are arguing about anymore. At the Runoffs, I would bet you an entry that NOBODY had a pure crate motor. What's the point? Stock optimization has been going on for decades in Showroom Stock.

[JeffYoung]

I am about as anti IT going national as they come. This I would agree with. Do away with the distinction all together (which gets rid of the one big problem I see on having IT go national and that is the dilution of regional fields) and I support it. Hell, I might even make the trek to RAmerica one year if they do it right -- top twenty classes go to the RuleOffs.

I'm confident that you'd find some support among IT drivers for that idea. Me, for one.

K