National Class

[shwah]

What is false? That a some folks thought it would cost more to be competitive, or that some folks are fully prepping IT cars?

[Bill Miller]

To the OP, Chris (RedMisted) and Ron are right, AS is very far away from IT, in terms of prep. Aftermarket brakes, aftermarket transmissions, etc., etc. However, as Chris said, they do look like they could be IT cars (probably more than anything else out there). As Steph and Chris (chois) have mentioned, there's a belief that having IT go National will raise costs for some. It may, but then again it may not. I think Chris' highlights of Steph's post show that. To Chris (chois), pay no attention to Travis. He keeps up with his notion that SM and IT are similar, and leaves out how the folks that originally bought into SM were sold a bill of goods vis-a-vis the "$10,000 race car that could run at the front". Granted, costs did go up because SM became popular. Would it have become as popular if it hadn't gone National? No way to know. I suspect that it could have. If SM had not gone National, you'd probably have a situation similar to what you see in ITA along the East coast, people spending big $$$$ to run at the front (and large fields). What's false is to compare a spec class to a somewhat open category like IT, where you have many different options, and therefore get some cars which are better for some tracks. Getting the last bit out of a spec class costs more than it does for a non-spec class. Part's bin blueprinting gets expensive. It's also why you pay 4x - 6x more for a 'pro' SM motor than you do a crate motor from MazdaSpeed. Part of that is that everybody isn't running the same car, so you don't know if the variability is in the car, the prep, or the nut behind the wheel.

[lateapex911]

. It's also why you pay 4x - 6x more for a 'pro' SM motor than you do a crate motor from MazdaSpeed. Part of that is that everybody isn't running the same car, so you don't know if the variability is in the car, the prep, or the nut behind the wheel.

This is true, but, there's more:

Diminishing returns comes into play.
In SM, you spend your savings fund to get teh last 2 HP, because that will be either enough to keep up with the guys who already have it, or you want to be ahead of the curve. When EVERY car is the same, 2 HP can be a deciding factor.

In IT, it's impossible to know if spending your last nickle on 2 HP will be enough to make a difference. A, it's impossible to compare, and B, you might be sufficiently ahead or behind another make/model, that it's irrelevant.

For that reason, IT build have a potential savings element. (Assuming all things being 'equal'.... same basic economics, not discussing Chevy builds vs Porsche builds)

Those who run Nationals tells us the 'cost' is having to travel and the requirement to, in a competitive class, have the quiver of tires for situations, and fresh rubber, etc on the car for every session. That presumes a Runoffs bid, or the desire to be at the top of the class, week in, week out.

IT is cheaper because you don't HAVE to travel (there IS no Ruboffs bid)...but, you CAN spend the same bucks on tires if you so choose, and in some areas of the country, running at the front of an IT field is more expensive that a nationals class...even if you are aiming for the runoffs.

[tnord]

SM pro motors are as little as $5000. i'd love to find a built ITA motor for $833-$1250. shit, i'm pretty sure i'll spend that on just my ECU and dyno time.....for i expect <2hp peak.

and for any of those areas where you think IT people are spending more than the national guys, that might be true for the lower competition, lesser subscribed classes....but is irrelevant to what would happen should IT go national.

[Knestis]

The cost question leaps past a LOT of mediating variables:

IT Goes National --> Cost Skyrocket for Everyone

No. Absolutely not, unless a bunch of qualifiers get inserted into the assertion. Ultimately, "competitiveness" has got to be considered in there somewhere. If one wants to be the biggest fish in a pond, AND the IT pond gets bigger (more competitive) because the category gains National status, then (duh) it's going to cost THOSE FISH more to maintain their dominance.

But asking the pond to stay small to maintain the status quo for individuals happy with their situations? That's bad old SCCA mentality - me, me, ME, MEEEE...!!

If Joe Racer is currently spending $25,000/year of his discretionary dough to race an IT car, he can continue to do that. If that doesn't buy him as many trophies as he's used to because the fields get deeper and tougher, that's tough ta-tas. And it's likely - I think - that a National option would siphon off the most committed ($$) of the current Regional racers, would pull a bunch of folks out of other categories (like SM did to IT), and leave the competitive equilibrium for REGIONAL IT races/series about where they currently are.

K

[tnord]

i don't think i ever said, or even implied that costs would skyrocket.

i don't think effectively splitting the class in two is a good idea.

if joe racer still spends his $25,000 to go regional racing, but now he's only racing against four people rather than the 15 he used to race against, in a much shallower field. is he still getting the same enjoyment/dollar that he used to? i doubt it.

hey, i thought splitting SM into natl/regional would do the same thing....send the guys with money up to national and leave the "regular guys" to run around and have fun with their regular cars/budgets. didn't happen.

but go right ahead and think i'm just being "selfish" to try and protect my own situation.

[Knestis]

I was addressing the common - and oversimplified - cost argument against National status for IT, Travis. It was not a direct response to you.

K

[Bill Miller]

SM pro motors are as little as $5000. i'd love to find a built ITA motor for $833-$1250. shit, i'm pretty sure i'll spend that on just my ECU and dyno time.....for i expect <2hp peak.

and for any of those areas where you think IT people are spending more than the national guys, that might be true for the lower competition, lesser subscribed classes....but is irrelevant to what would happen should IT go national.

Travis,

Try to pay attention. Where did I say that a Pro SM motor cost that much more than an ITA motor?

The bigger question is, why does it start at $5k for what you can get from MazdaSpeed for ~$2k, when they're supposed to be 'spec' motors. And since a Pro SM motor starts at $5k, please tell me how many of the first 10 cars on the Runoffs SM grid were running those motors?

Regarding how much fun someone has in their race, if you're running at the front of your class, do you care if there are 5 cars in your class, or 25 cars in your class?

As far as the whole Regional/National thing, and the IT going National thing, count me as another one that agrees w/ what Kirk posted. I've been saying pretty much the same thing for a couple of years now.

[tnord]

It's also why you pay 4x - 6x more for a 'pro' SM motor than you do a crate motor from MazdaSpeed.

Mazdaspeed Crate ~$2500
$2500 x 4 = $10,000
$2500 x 6 = $15,000

And since a Pro SM motor starts at $5k, please tell me how many of the first 10 cars on the Runoffs SM grid were running those motors?

2 of the top 3.

Regarding how much fun someone has in their race, if you're running at the front of your class, do you care if there are 5 cars in your class, or 25 cars in your class?

yes. i feel a greater sense of accomplishment when i beat 25 people rather than 5. but you're probably one of "those guys" who feels like a winner in a 2 car field.

[924Guy]

I'd much rather beat 2-3 guys like Beran, Schaafsma, Spencer, Moore, etc, than a field of 10 or 20 uncompetitive cars with uncompetitive drivers. Had enough of both to know the difference, but one's definitely much more of a challenge than the other.

It's quality, not quantity.

[tnord]

I agree Vaughan, but in general, if there's a field of 20, at least a couple of those guys are going to be a "Beran" or "Schaafsma" etc.

[lateapex911]

Quality over quantity every time.

[Bill Miller]

Mazdaspeed Crate ~$2500
$2500 x 4 = $10,000
$2500 x 6 = $15,000



2 of the top 3.



yes. i feel a greater sense of accomplishment when i beat 25 people rather than 5. but you're probably one of "those guys" who feels like a winner in a 2 car field.

The point is, why does a supposed 'spec' motor from a pro builder start at 2x what you can get one from the mfg for?

Which 2 of the top 3, and who's motors? If that's really the case, one of two things is going to happen. Either the guys charging more than $5k for a SM engine are going to lower their prices (or get out of the SM engine business) or the shop that's selling those $5k Runoffs' podium engines is going to raise their prices.

When was the last time you won a race in a field of 25 ITA or SM cars? Point is, if you're running at the front, it doesn't matter if you've got 5 or 25 guys behind you. You're ahead of them on the grid, and you usually don't see them unless you're lapping them. As others have pointed out, it's about the quality of the guys you're racing against, not quantity. And while I agree that you stand a better chance of having more quality drivers/cars in a larger field, it doesn't mean you can't have good racing in a small field. But even at the Runoffs, you get guys that run away from the enitre field. I think it was not that many years ago where the T1 winner lapped the ENTIRE FIELD.