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Thread: Alternate 240Z rear brakes...?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle7 View Post
    So when are you going to dust that thing off and drive it?
    Once I get just a little bit farther in this school thing which has forced me into retirement, I hope to get back out there. Hopefully, maybe, I'll get it out to Grattan to do a couple of test days this summer, but I still need to but the engine back together.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pballance View Post
    They were all finned Ron. Aluminum drum with steel insert.
    If that's the case, then how can a steel aftermarket drum be considered a legal equivalent?
    Marty Doane
    ITS RX-7 #13 (sold)
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Herman View Post
    ...Hopefully, maybe, I'll get it out to Grattan to do a couple of test days this summer, but I still need to but the engine back together.
    Wohoo! I'll try not to hit you.
    Marty Doane
    ITS RX-7 #13 (sold)
    2016 Winnebago Journey (home)

  4. #24
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    It's unclear if the cars ever came with steel drums. If not, I agree, it's technically illegal.

    But, I sure wouldn't want to be the guy who protested that.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle7 View Post
    If that's the case, then how can a steel aftermarket drum be considered a legal equivalent?
    NC Region
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle7 View Post
    If that's the case, then how can a steel aftermarket drum be considered a legal equivalent?
    It wouldn't be.

    I just spoke with Riley at Lynchburg Nissan, probably the best Z parts man in the country. He says that Z cars came ONLY with finned aluminum drums. The 510s used steel drums, and of course those guys switched to Z drums for the competition setup.

    So, steel aftermarket drums are technically illegal as no Z car was ever equipped with them. Since the aluminum drums are NLA (even Ebay only pulls up one drum right now) we are in sort of a pickle.

    Riley also passed on other information about the drums. They were produced for Brembo/Nissan from a company in Italy. Brembo owns molds, but the other company does the production and they pulled the plug on production with only a few 100 orders for year. The molds are tied up at the company and it'll take a 1000+ unit order for them to do another run of them, which isn't going to happen.

    Now, switching a 240/260/280 to disc rears isn't as easy at it sounds. According to Riley the 280ZX stuff does not bolt up, but, other OEM parts do. One is supposed to use a Maxima caliper bracket from 83/84 and 200sx calipers/rotors, from 82/83, mounted upside down to pull it off.

    So, 240/260/280 drum brake racers might need to consider lobbying for some sort of rule change because racing with steel drums is technically illegal.

  6. #26
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    Regarding the GM issue, if the ITAC were to get a letter asking for the removal of the exception, I think it would be seen as a reasonable request, and we'd discuss the merits. IF we supported the removal, we'd add a "sunset clause" of a year or two for the Calais nation to source the parts.

    FWIW, 1st gen RX-7s face a similar issue. Engine parts are NLA. There is a plating system available aftermarket, but the finished plating differs from stock in material, but not performance, and is therefor illegal.
    Jake Gulick


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Earp View Post
    So, 240/260/280 drum brake racers might need to consider lobbying for some sort of rule change because racing with steel drums is technically illegal.
    GCR/ITCS 9.1.3.C says, in part:
    "Documentation of the superseding parts or assemblies must be supplied to the Club Racing Department and the appropriate part numbers listed on that particular model’s specification line."
    If you saunter down to your local Nissan dealership and order a pair of rear drums for a Z-car, what will you get? I'll wager a dollar you'll get a pair of steel drums. As such, the steel ones are not only legal, they're the only legal new part for the car. So, no lobbying needed, all one needs to do is provide the Club Racing Department with valid documentation that the aluminum parts are no longer available, and ask them to spec on the line that steel equivalents are expressly legal (although I can't imagine anyone dropping the money and effort to protest you for that). Contact Paul St. Clair at NisMo; I bet he can provide that to you same-day via FAX or email.

    On the other hand, if you guys really think you'll get rear discs approved for the car simply because the aluminum drums are no longer available, well you're smokin' the funny stuff -- and this month's Fastrack should have put that idea to bed pretty quickly... - GA

  8. #28
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    Anyone have a clue how much it would cost to have warn out drums re-lined?
    Chris Carey

    Central Florida Region
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    On the other hand, if you guys really think you'll get rear discs approved for the car simply because the aluminum drums are no longer available, well you're smokin' the funny stuff -- and this month's Fastrack should have put that idea to bed pretty quickly... - GA
    No Greg, I think if you read what I and others have written nobody here (except for the thread starter) is going to ask for disc rear allowance. I simply wrote what Riley passed on to me so that folks could see what was involved with putting drums on the rear of a Z car. It isn't a simple swap over from a 280zx.

    My mistake in my post was writing "lobbying for a rule change" when I meant lobbying to have steel drums approved. I had forgotten about the part supercede pathway and I'm sure that Lynchburg Nissan/Riley will provide this documentation.
    Last edited by Ron Earp; 01-25-2010 at 07:22 PM.

  10. #30
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    Anyone have a clue how much it would cost to have warn out drums re-lined?
    I talked with a couple plasma spray companies and it can be done for about $175 per drum (shipping, core charges, etc. would be extra) in a quantity of 50. The existing steel surface needs to be machined flat, the surface prepped and then sprayed, and then the surface needs to be machined to the correct dimension. There is some concern about an out-of-round condition due to the different materials so I was planning on a test run.

    But... a couple west coast Z racers told me they are working with Brembo to do a new production run of some kind for the drums. I put my efforts on hold until i see the results of their efforts.

  11. #31
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    Thanks to everyone that has responded, there’s a lot to digest here on the subject.

    First-off, I want to make a plea to everyone, not to mount a campaign to rescind the rear bearings (and brakes) from the Olds and Pontiac guys. In my opinion this would be a terrible thing to do to them, essentially legislating dangerous parts back onto their cars, inviting much anger among their ranks, and possibly losing some great competitors within a club that desperately needs them. It’s an unwarranted vengeance. This was not my intention with the request.

    I do though find myself questioning this particular premise of the class. I question that it is outdated to reject some wider updating of parts for limited reasons, in the same manner that the original IT premise of a “dual purpose” vehicle became outdated. (the concept of a class where its competitors desired to drive to the track, put numbers on the car and race, then drive home and use their cars as a family vehicle, has surely passed, and that verbiage and concept are therefore no longer cited in the rules). So too may the strict concept of updating and backdating of parts only within a single specification line, be outdated, and that no allowances for NLA parts be a premise of the class.

    I have built and raced Datsun 240Z’s for 20+ years now. The true situation with the cars as they sit, is that because of improvements in tires and brake pad materials through the years, the cars when driven hard surely have some brake limitations. I no longer for instance, race at Blackhawk farms, Road America, or Summit Point because of this. This is primarily as Lance Loughman outlined, because the front solid rotor no matter how well ducted or what brake fluid or pads you are using, cannot reject the heat under some conditions. This is of course a limitation on a lot of racecars, but it’s pretty severe on the 240’s.

    In this particular Comp board request case we are hitting another kind of limitation that is pretty real. If I cannot get a rear brake drum, then I cannot race the car. My opinion is that the cast iron drums would be less able (than a finned aluminum drum with steel insert), to dissipate the heat from the latest brake pad friction coefficient capability. And there seemed to be a reasonably simple configuration available from the same type car, that would alleviate the problem.

    I fight the concept in this class, that I need to simply move over, build another car, go vintage, quit racing, or move to another class , when a key consumable becomes NLA, without questioning the current IT class philosophy.

    Before I get flamed here, I’ll submit that I hadn’t planned on becoming an old racing fart, but that seems to have occurred, and I want to keep racing the old car that I have. It’s just something I want, a desire. If I request for my club to do something that makes this possible for me and those like me, and it is rejected by the persons who represent the collective will of the club in making the rules, then so be it I’ll move on. I want as much possibility as I can have, to continue to race this ITS classified vehicle. That’s my club member input/request.

    Maybe an answer to the problem here, with respect to the situation we have with the one rogue alternate drum-to-disc rule that exists, and with the situation with older cars with drums, would be to permit any drum brake to be replaced with a disc brake. Possibly the Committee could draft a rule that globally permitted this within some guidelines that would suit the concept.

    I think that I request from the Committee, that wider considerations be given to updating of parts where NLA situations can be reasonably demonstrated, and/or where safety can be improved, without significant alteration of a car’s competitive capability (as was surely the case with the Olds/Pontiac SS ruling). To not simply invoke the “beyond class philosophy” verbiage, for all such requested changes.

  12. #32
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    You mention "modern brake pad materials", inferring that they create more heat than the parts are capable of accepting. But, there are many brake pad materials, some equvilent, or the same as, the old compounds. So, that's a solvable issue.

    The issue with exceptions becomes, where to draw the line.

    Witness this by the ONE exception, left over from who knows when (there were others, but we've stricken them) is being used as justification for this. We get letters regularly like "My car can't make the weight you set with me in it, I need an alternate body part allowance for the Humpback GT", Or, "the hubs fail on the car if we race them too often, please allow upgraded hubs"..and on and on.

    I'm in the same boat, my car can not get engine parts. But, I've raced it for 10 years, it's set a lot of records and won some races. It's a tool, and tools wear out. Time to move on. keeps you young!
    Jake Gulick


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lateapex911 View Post
    It's a tool, and tools wear out. Time to move on. keeps you young!
    Are you saying my tool is worn out?

    Hell no my Z isn't worn out. Jeff and I obtained some good finishes with it in 09 and it seems to be racing just fine. Yes, brakes are a challenge at CMP (and I agree with Jeff, I'd put that track up against any other track around for "brake challenging") and require a lot of maintenance. They do work and in my opinion, and obviously the opinion of many other Z racers who are also racing, is that there isn't a safety concern.

    It is unfortunate that in the future Z racers might be forced to use heavier steel drums. On the upside they are far cheaper than the Brembo ally drums. However I don't think there is a need to quit racing a Z, go vintage, or move classes unless that is your desire.
    Last edited by Ron Earp; 01-26-2010 at 07:20 AM.

  14. #34
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    Serious question. Do the Z cars really create that much heat in the rears? I can understand the fronts. I use the cheapest NAPA pads I can find for the rears, run them down very low and have no problem with heat.
    Jeff L

    ITA Miata



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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLawton View Post
    Serious question. Do the Z cars really create that much heat in the rears? I can understand the fronts. I use the cheapest NAPA pads I can find for the rears, run them down very low and have no problem with heat.

    Yes they do. When the Z rears are adjusted up properly the drums will be blue from heat and stock shoes will crumble and can catch fire. Carbotech (and other) shoes will take the heat. To keep the rears working like they should requires adjusting the drum/shoe relationship about every 30 mins of hard operating time.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by acotyk View Post
    Thanks to everyone that has responded, there’s a lot to digest here on the subject.
    ................
    .
    Acotyk, Your well reasoned, respectful manner in which you have responded is to be commended . I may be taking your comments the wrong way but I feel like you are attempting to make the "club" work for its members which has not always been the case. Even though I may disagree with you , I applaud your efforts and it has made me reconsider some of my opinions about racing an older car. I look forward to racing alongside of you in a Z and sharing a beverage in the paddock after the race.

    I also ask the entire group, how do we age out a car in IT? Seriously, I don't want to stop racing my Z and I am sure there are some 510, RX7, Borgward, etc. drivers that want to continue, but how do we limit when a car must stop racing? Do we simply make concessions, such as discussed here when parts are NLA, to keep them racing? Can we create a "process" by which a car should be aged out? Is it even in the best interest of the club to consider aging out cars? Just thinking out loud, Can you tell it is the silly season??

    BTW, I don't like the idea that "we should just go find something else to race" mentatlity but that certainly is one solution.

    Paul
    Paul Ballance
    Tennessee Valley Region (yeah it's in Alabama)
    ITS '72
    1972 240Z
    "Experience is what you get when you're expecting something else." unknown

  17. #37
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    Paul, opinions on this vary.

    It's really rather personal. Some see race cars as tools. Pro racers especially. Some see them as old dear friends. I race to win. I pat my car on the dash when I do. So I guess I'm a bit of both!

    But, pragmatically, I understand that core philosophies exist to serve a group at large. So, I understand when my little 'issue' might need to just be dealt with by me, as opposed to changing the entire groups methods.

    So, in your case, you can deal with the issue by running a setup that will generate less heat, or deal with it better. pads/shoes are free. Fabricate custom internal shoe finning and run multiple ducts. How would the F1 engineers handle the limitations? Think out of the box. Often we can be surprised when we see solutions we didn't think of. They DO exist sometimes!

    Or, accept the limitation and adapt the driving etc. When the RX-7 was an obvious non runner in ITA, we in the New England Region bought a trophy and gave it to the guy who won that race in an RX-7. It was fun!.

    Not the answers you want, just some thoughts.
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
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  18. #38
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    Remember when Spock did the Vulkan mind meld with Uhura and he almost died. Kirk had to pull him away, when asked if he was ok he replied with “a mass of conflicting emotion”. I am having this same Spock moment trying to understand the logic behind these rules. By the way they don’t show this episode on TV anymore, I’m sure you can figure out why! Suppose this is why there are so many issues with the ITAC!

    Hi John Herman, good to know your still out there. If John is right about the SS changes that then became part of IT for the GM rear disks, then why would the SS rules carry over to IT in violation of base IT rules Specification section 9.1.3.c. Could it be that safety really was the reason as stated would be allowed in section 9.1.3.b to “construct a safe race car”. If so, then what are the rules for determining safety? Since dual purpose no longer applies and “we will give you a place to race your car and have fun” is still in play, I would argue that with the tire, shock brake compound and other technology improvements over the years allowing for overall faster lap times these days that constantly driving around the brake technology of the early Z cars is not fun! A Z driven at 10/10th will have brake issues at all the tracks in my area, Chicago, other than Nelson Ledges and only 7/10th at some tracks will cause problems. I have had rear shoes delaminate, wheel cylinders freeze and seal blow outs that caused fluid fires. What are the requirement to determine a safe race car? Not being able to get the aluminum drums that were stock on these (I called Courtesy Nissan in TX and they have no rear drums for the 240z iron or aluminum) and looking at using remanufacture replacements or an iron after market drum (Can't post the web link but go to the Courtesy Nissan Part site)
    I would also argue that if the GM exception was for rule 9.1.3.a, “opportunity to compete in low cost cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition” that this would apply to the Z (or maybe any other car with rear drums). Race cars with drum brakes! Boy let’s make that a rule in the pro ranks and then you will have a show!

    Bottom line for me: The GM exception has opened the door. It should not be the only set of cars allowed to enter that door. I, like Andy, don’t want to see any cars leave IT so requiring a retrofit to the GM cars does not seem fair. SM has done a good enough job of that already let alone the economy. I would like to continue to race my Z in the SCCA and running iron drums does not seem to be within the rules. Simple answer > apply the rules equally and allow the disk conversion of an alternate model Nissan as was done with the GM cars.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLoughman View Post
    I would like to continue to race my Z in the SCCA and running iron drums does not seem to be within the rules. Simple answer > apply the rules equally and allow the disk conversion of an alternate model Nissan as was done with the GM cars.
    That's quite the gargantuan leap of logic there...

    Get a Nissan dealer to write you a note that steel/iron drums are the Nissan superceded parts for aluminum drums.

    Easy peasy...sans leaps.
    Last edited by Greg Amy; 01-28-2010 at 10:35 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLoughman View Post
    ... Simple answer > apply the rules equally and allow all cars to run the same GM rear brakes as the Oldsmobiles.
    Ta-da!



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