Need Advice/tips - Building an ITA Saturn SC

[924Guy]

As an aside, there's a couple of sister cars to Jeff, both white as I recall, both built by the same group of SPS racers/GM engineers. They each come up for sale every year or two. If you REALLY want to race a Saturn, you're saving yourself scads of time, money, and hell by buying one of those as a start.

GA

Greg's totally right on this. I knew Jeff's car well before Jeff had it; I crewed on that team, know the engineers who built it, and you damn well better believe it cannot be duplicated for any price.

Except buying. Which you should do. Chris Berube's car is still for sale; it is one of those aforementioned team/sister cars to Walker's old car, aka Jeff's car, the red one. I can hunt down Berube's contact info around here somewhere - I remember seeing the posting on the walls at Milford, sure we can still find it. You'd be far better off buying Chris's car and parting out your car, if you've got that big a hard-on for a Saturn.

Note that the cage in those cars was designed using the original GM CAD files for the chassis - it's second to none. Just like the inside access on tuning the ECU.

This is as close as any of us can come to affording a factory-built factory team racecar. Even if it is a Saturn!

Oh, for the record, as one of those who built my own... I had guys like Walker (who built Jeff's car) advising me down the right path. Yes, I built the car that I had. But I almost immediately scrapped it for a better candidate of the same model. While it was hopelessly outclassed (being an ITA car at the time), it was at least a perfectly solid car for the track, being a Porsche.

The SC2 is NOT. Even when fully prepped, it requires vast amounts more maintenance than the Porsches, when both are run at the pointy end of the field. Things like bearing wear (I repack mine every year, change them when I feel like it), brake wear (no new pads more than once a year), engines (going on 5 or 6 years on the same build, my own), shocks etc... I'm sure Jeff can provide the counterpoints in detail for the SC2, but I know from firsthand experience that pads and bearings are lucky to last more than 2 weekends on that car...

[quadzjr]

as a similar story to the 260z. I bought a "race ready" car with log book. I have spent now 3 times that price making it legal and getting it on the track. However I am happy with what I have now, even if it won't be competitive.

lesson learned. It is smarter fincially to buy a car, however make sure that the car is atleast close to what you want. This is the mistake I made. Basically the only thing that I kept from the old car was the rolling chassis and spares.

[lateapex911]

Here's one more angle:
A race car is a tool. To win in, to learn in, to compete in. The bottom line is that it is a disposable commodity. You must be willing to trash it, if that's what it takes.

Now, build it yourself, and you've sunk hours, errr, moths of your time (and there is a possible family 'cost' to that) AND money....you're deeply invested in that car.

That can work against you in two ways. One, you're afraid to approach limits, to race hard, because you cringe at the thought of redoing just completed work (the fresh paint syndrome), and two, because you have so much invested in the car, it would represent too large a loss for you to bear.

Those are bad things to be thinking of when racing a car.

If you buy, (after doing the numbers on what it will REALLY cost*), you laugh when you roll up on grid, because you're thinking, "I'm racing $20K worth of parts that cost me $7!"

But the best part of the buy mentality is the freedom. Buying sets you free to sell it. You're just not that deep into it, and when the time comes to move up/over or out, you don't look at your pile of $25K receipts for a car that will sell for $7, and stop. It hurts a lot less to sell your $7K car for $5, and chuckle thinking about the fun and wins you got for $2K.

* It's very tough to estimate what it will "Really" cost to build a car. Compare built versions of the car you are considering. Jeff's Saturn for example. Look at what it has, then source those components, apply labor, and a number will spit out. In Jeffs case, the starting number is REALLY hard to determine, because it was build semi-'in house' by a Saturn engineer. But, safe to say, the replicate cost...to build the same quality/function..... is in the $30K range.

[gran racing]

On the flip side, it can also work FOR you in a way. You built the car, spend hours and hours working on it, and now can fix stuff pretty darn easily because you've already taken just about everything apart on it. Oh wait, is that actually good? LOL

[lateapex911]

yea, but you can do that with a built car you buy. You're just not forced to. I think that, at this time, it''s a great time to buy built cars. It's a buyers market. Unless you are forging new trails and building what you think is the next "surprise winner", the only reasons to build your own are that you love to do it, and/or are very good at it. But Kirs right, you'll be on track faster if you buy, and you'll have money left over to work on the most important part of the car, the nut behind the wheel. THAT"s where the extra money should go: tracktime.

[downingracing]

Bought my race car(SSC Civic). Ran it for a few years in Regoinal SS classes (back when we had 10-15 SSC cars at a Regional...). Converted it to ITS when it moved to IT. Then got it moved to ITA. Been building/fixing it for over 10 years now. Didn't build it, but have 'built' it in upgrades and repairs (more than I like to think about in 10+ years) and know the car inside and out.

We built my brother's Civic, but had a perfect shell to start with. Would have been cheaper to buy, but had a great starting point with tons of go-fast parts and many years of experience with the model. (Having hundreds of spare parts makes the build easier!)

If you want to have the fun of building - go for it! It really is FUN! You will know the car inside and out when it is complete!

If you want to race ASAP - write a check and have fun! You will still go thru the car after purchase (Prior to racing it), so you'll 'kinda' know the car.

I'll buy my next race car (unless I want a break and feel like taking my time to build one - AKA: too poor to race and need an excuse to not be... ).

[dickita15]

I bought my first car then built my second. The good thing about this was I knew a lot more of what I wanted to do when I did the build.

[Mikster]

I am real glad I joined the forum. It is interesting to read the different points of view.

I don't need this car to get on track, I have an SRF. This car is for fun/more track time/enduro's. I plan to make it as competitive as possible, but not chase the impossible (custom built parts). I also have the time to waste, my wife is no longer among the living, so the time to build is not a concern. I have some experience building race cars, Pony Stock dirt racers, so part of this is for the fun of building it the way I want it.

As no one on the west coast is available I will be emailing Jeff for advise, but will take advise/criticism from anyone.

My email address is [email protected].

Give me time and I will have a neat signature figured out.

Mik

[Xian]

Well... sounds like building is a "good" idea for you since most of the normal hurdles aren't there in your case. Best of luck with the build and definitely talk with Jeff about the Saturn. He's probably one of the few "experts" you'll find out there. Another would be John Obremski (sp?). He's a Florida guy and on this forum too... was running an SC2 and is building another Saturn right now.

[planet6racing]

Ah, building a Saturn. I have very fond memories...

Your biggest challenge will be a limited slip differential. I know of a total of (10) that exist for the Saturns that are truly LSDs (and, yes, i have one of them).

As for ITA being the only class for the Saturns, that is incorrect. They are also classified in prep level 2 for FP. A little more freedom in what you get to do, plus it is a national class.

Good luck! The comments about doubling the budget and time are spot on, but if you take your time you really, REALLY get to know the car and every single nut/bolt on it. I certainly have a ton of pride in the car that I built...

Oh, and one nitpicky thing - there was no 92 SC2. For 91 and 92, Saturn only made the Saturn SC which came with the DOHC engine. 93 was the first year they came out with the SC1 and SC2 designation (SOHC vs. DOHC along with a number of body differences).

[rgrunenw]

I really have to agree with the earlier comment about ending up with a partially built car in the garage, never making it on to the track, and being disenchanted with the whole thing.

There are so many trophy winning cars for sale under $10k that it is not even funny. If you are looking to get on track, there are a multitude of cars available for under $4k.

A basic low end prep on your Saturn will cost more than a fully prepped car:

- Cage: $1200 installed
- Belts: $100
- Net: $75 installed
- Seat: $200 installed
- Going through the car and replacing wheel bearings, hubs, worn suspension pieces, etc on your 275,000 mile car: An easy $1,000.
- Decent shocks and springs (not even coil overs): $800
- Cheap Header and exhaust: $250
- Race tires: $600

An easy $4000 without even trying. Even overestimating things, you are still at $3000.

Buy a car, learn what it takes to race from behind the wheel, and then if you really want to build a car, go into it with your eyes open.

[planet6racing]

No offense, rgrunew, but...

Did you read the part about him being a current SRF driver and that he was looking for a new challenge?

The Saturn is a fun car to build, as a lot of work was done for design for assembly (except for the side timing chain cover). However, with Saturn going away (thanks GM!), the number of custom parts required will probably be increasing...

[raffaelli]

On the flip side, it can also work FOR you in a way. You built the car, spend hours and hours working on it, and now can fix stuff pretty darn easily because you've already taken just about everything apart on it. Oh wait, is that actually good? LOL

Why i built mine.

[raffaelli]

Now, build it yourself, and you've sunk hours, errr, moths of your time (and there is a possible family 'cost' to that) AND money....you're deeply invested in that car.

Why I will spend 2010 in the T&S Tower.