pit stop enforcement

[dickita15]

It is my understanding that some enduros that have a minimum pit stop length are using a software program to determine compliance rather than actually timing stops.
What I have been told it that the software takes your in lap, out lap and time in the pits and compares it to you best lap times 2 plus the time it should take you to drive thru the pits and the length of the mandatory stop. Penalties are assessed for too short a time after the race.
I am told that the ARRC enduro used this system. How many other enduros have been using this method? What do enduro competitors think of this method.
I see advantages of more even enforcement not relying on pit marshals with stop watches but it certainly take the emphasis of drivers doing a good in and out lap.
I assume the good teams are calculating the time it should take to do the two laps and the pit stop and running it like a TSD rally making sure they cross the line at the right time.
Please do not let this become a discussion of whether there should be minimum stop lengths. I already understand both sides of that argument.

[Greg Amy]

My first experience with that rule was at this year's ARRC enduro. I had to read it a few times to understand it, and Kirk and I tossed around how to conform - and game - the system. All others we've done (e.g., VIR 13, Summit 12, Nelson 24, NHMS 3) use pit folks visually verifying stopped times. And, all of those events require teams to provide 1 worker for a limited period to assist in doing that.

The main problem is that it's an inferential measurement; you are not actually measuring the actual "box" time, you're inferring it from fast lap times. The actual "box" time will not be what you infer from the fast lap times. In effect, you're not saying your stop must be xx minutes, you're saying it's "gotta be around xx minutes".

Another issue I'd have the method is 'appeal-ability'. We always use a stopwatch to specifically time the stop to the second. If, for some reason there was disagreement with the system, we would have no method of appealing that decision, regardless if it's right or wrong.

Further, given that lap times will need to be tracked all the way to the checkered flag, unless you've got some appropriate software doing real-time analysis and mathification of the lap times, you're gonna have a helluva time trying to ensure that the rule was met by the time the trophies need to be presented (can you imagine doing that maths to 40+ cars, all before the 30-minute impound expires?)

On the other hand, since we keep track of all lap times, we would easily game the system by kicking in a couple of sprint laps at the end, then using those times as a basis for the in and out laps of the prior pit stop. I assure you, as a result our pit stops will not be that minimum "box" time...

I can see the point of that rule, not having enough pit workers. But in the end I really don't think it meets the goals any easier than actually timing the stops...- GA

[dickita15]

Further, given that lap times will need to be tracked all the way to the checkered flag, unless you've got some appropriate software doing real-time analysis and mathification of the lap times, you're gonna have a helluva time trying to ensure that the rule was met by the time the trophies need to be presented (can you imagine doing that maths to 40+ cars, all before the 30-minute impound expires?)

Greg,
I spoke with someone who was involved with enforcement side at the Arrc and it appears that they have solved this part. Immediately after the race data was available as to who was short and by how much and penalties were assessed. The technical side from the official’s side seems to function.
Of course the box time will be shorter. I would assume you and Kirk calculated when you had to cross the line at the end of your out lap.

[Greg Amy]

...it appears that they have solved this part. Immediately after the race data was available...

Good to know; I was wondering about that.

I would assume you and Kirk calculated when you had to cross the line at the end of your out lap.

Only generally. We talked about how to do it, but that particular race was a casual "fun one". But if that technique is used for the other biggies, you can be assured we'll know that time to the second...

A resolution to that would be random spot-checks of stops by a limited number of pit workers, with the threat that the actual measured times would over-ride the lap timing method. It would provide a limited disincentive to game the system, but you better do it, otherwise it'll get wholesale ignored. Of course, my response to that would be to pre-calc the "gamed" number, and use that (if advantageous) if I observe no one timing us...

In the end, I sincerely doubt the differences will be significant, and either method will still conform to the spirit of the rules (that being to minimize rushing and reduce the risk of fuel spills). If these times are not significantly different, then more than likely we'll simply measure and use the xx stopped time and hope the lap timing method is sufficiently accurate so as not to ding us incorrectly (or toss in a couple sprint laps at the end to ensure it)... - GA

[MMiskoe]

Bad bad idea.

So what do you do when it starts raining? Or rather when it stops raining & all your lap times get signifcantly faster? What about the differences in drivers? How do you account for it all when the field is under full caution?

Since all the enduro's I've done had minimum times imposed as an effort to improve safety of stops (fuel especially), this defeats that. With your pit stop time being determined by your best laps, but knowing that you are not likely to acheive that on your in/out laps, you'll rush the stop to hit the minimum time.

Also many of the stop times are set up this way only for fueling, there is no minimum time for a non-fuel stop. How will this system deal w/ that? For example - the car goes out and you think there's a problem w/ a wheel nut, if you're faced w/ a minimum time for any stop (not just fuel) you'd be more willing to take a chance on not fixing it.

A stop watch at the pit box really isn't that hard to manage. The guys that are fast enough to complete the stop in the minimum time are usually smart enough to know that an extra 5 second buffer is way faster than a penalty.

Dumb. Don't do it.

[datadude]

The most accurate way to handle this is to have a "in pit loop" and an "out pit loop". This would also mean the added expense of 2 new decoders from AMB and the necessary loops and coax. The AMB software does have a pit report available in the current and last software issues. Although it does not give you an actual pit time if you don't have the second "out pit loop" it does give you the time (race time and actual time) of when a car crosses the pit loop, which right now should be in line with the start finish line. One thing to remember, a lot of tracks don't have a pit loop at all.

[JohnRW]

Gotta be a simpler way.

I don't like the "infer from lap times" method. Too much wiggle. An army of pit stop marshals isn't staff-efficient, either. Teams want to know that someone is ACTIVELY watching their competition, for obvious reasons.

Suggestion:

Post one "observer" at Pit In, another at Pit Out. Establish a "transit time" for pit lane (already done in many cases). Syncronize watches. Record car #'s and times on entry, record car #'s and times on exit. Compare lists regularly and "do the math". Communicate between the two, and maybe T&S, with a "runner" or via a low-traffic radio channel.

It would be a whole lot simpler than pouring thru all the transponder passings to figure it out, only requires two people to monitor, and at the checker you would KNOW who hasn't met the requirements.

[callard]

While I've not had a problem with having a team member put in two hours in support of a longer enduro, apparently it's an issue at some of the short ones.
As a suggestion, have one or two competitor teams along with you, time your pit stop. When you all agree when the 90 or 120 seconds is over, the car can leave.
Then again, this might cause some additional fist fights.
Chuck