Open Coolers

[Rabbit07]

I just sent a request for open coolers for all IT cars. Including Differential, Transmission, and Power Steering. I have seen some failures this year particlularly on some Mazda products that appeared to be directly related to heat.

I ask if you share a similar view point and would like to be able to add cooler(s) to your IT car beyond an external engine cooler, Please send you letters.

[JeffYoung]

I think the argument was made that since power steering lines are free, you can add a cooler there (the idea is that the cooler is "part" of the lines). I haven't looked at that set of rules in a while, so no position on that.

Beyond that, this seems like one of those claimed safety/reliability issues that could have significant unintended consequences.

[frnkhous]

Just curious what mazda products?

[lawtonglenn]

I thought the thread was about drinking beer in the paddock



.

[C. Ludwig]

I agree that coolers should be allowed. It makes no sense to me at all that you are freely allowed to spend an unlimited amount on building a custom ring and pinion and differential but that couple hundred more for a fluid pump and cooler is out of the question. Typical SCCA.

[Rabbit07]

just Curious What Mazda Products?

Rx-7.

[jhooten]

Looking deeply into something that looks like a crystal ball I see the words "Not in keeping with the class philosophy". But my magic wand hasn 't been working so well of late either.

[joeg]

Where was it hot this year?

Seriously, the proper fluids and regular maintenance would take care of 95% of cooler perceived issues (allong with good finned lines).

[924Guy]

I thought the thread was about drinking beer in the paddock



.

+1 - open hoods and coolers in impound.

[cchandler]

Improved reliability = Competitive advantage

Gentlemen, choose your weapons carefully.

[rsportvolvo]

I don't think folks realize how hot differentials can get, especially with Salisbury type limited-slips. Adding coolers should be a minimal impact considering all that can be done currently within the ITCS. I mentioned this awhile back and plan on running one regardless. The cost of a new differential is a lot more than a pump, lines and a cooler.

[Greg Amy]

The cost of a new differential is a lot more than a pump, lines and a cooler.

Choosing a lesser-performance differential that doesn't run as hot is a lot less than having to add pumps, lines, and coolers...

[rsportvolvo]

Choosing a lesser-performance differential that doesn't run as hot is a lot less than having to add pumps, lines, and coolers...

Possibly. The friction from a TORSEN type vs. Salisbury type will depend on a lot of design factors of each specific brand. The end result is the same, they all produce heat. Adding coolers is peanuts compared to getting custom bevel gears made, which is currently legal. Why not allow coolers? Heck it's extra weight and complexity.

Does anyone really think that someone will beat them on the track becuase they have a gearbox/diff/transaxle cooler? I sure hope that's not the case.

[Greg Amy]

SWISH!!!

(Picture of GA moving his hand across the top of his head, front to back...)

[JohnRW]

I don't think folks realize how hot differentials can get, especially with Salisbury type limited-slips. Adding coolers should be a minimal impact considering all that can be done currently within the ITCS. I mentioned this awhile back and plan on running one regardless.

So...you disagree with the the current rules-set, and you'll just disregard the ones you don't like ?

What other rules might you rationalize away ?

You've been building that Volvo for many years, and while you've never turned a lap, you seem to have all sorts of problems with it that others don't. Dana 30 rear end, big axle tubes out each side, holds lots of oil and has a reasonably big surface area to dump some heat. When I was racing a 142 with a Dana 30 solid axle, I had all sorts of issues (gearbox, engine, etc) but never a problem with the diff. None of the other Volvo guys with that same axle seem to have overheating diff issues. A friend with a "flat-nosed turbo" 240 rally car had occasional diff & axle issues, but he was running ballistic power levels in a difficult (pro rally) environment, far beyond what IT-legal has to deal with.

Most likely, you've picked the wrong class for your project. Feel free to build a GT car...the rules are right there in the GCR...you can modify and add all sorts of whizz-bang stuff, legally.

[tnord]

i would not support this, even as someone who could potentially benefit from it.

[Lael Cleland]

Mazda currently has a HUGE recall on power steering pumps and lines.....Brand new cars.... ya need all the help you can get if they still cant figure out how to build it...

[rsportvolvo]

So...you disagree with the the current rules-set, and you'll just disregard the ones you don't like ?

Doesn't everyone at some level? That's why folks search for loopholes and work arounds.

What other rules might you rationalize away ?

The ITCS 37mm exhaust valve that is only 35mm from Volvo. Care to discuss more issues with the 240 and the ITCS? My reclassification request is in process and I'm awaiting the results.

You've been building that Volvo for many years, and while you've never turned a lap, you seem to have all sorts of problems with it that others don't. Dana 30 rear end, big axle tubes out each side, holds lots of oil and has a reasonably big surface area to dump some heat. When I was racing a 142 with a Dana 30 solid axle, I had all sorts of issues (gearbox, engine, etc) but never a problem with the diff. None of the other Volvo guys with that same axle seem to have overheating diff issues. A friend with a "flat-nosed turbo" 240 rally car had diff & axle issues, but he was running ballistic power levels in a difficult (pro rally) environment.

A 142 is not the same as a 242. Hence Bob Griffith's ITB 242 being termed a "toad" by Eric Curran in testing. That is part of the issue in developing a new car, it takes a lot of time and research. I've done my research, helped other running ITB 240's and worked to reclassify the car with correct specs (weight is not a big issue with me). Now I'm ready to build the car and run it. Additionally my job travel requirements have prevented my cars completion. My car will be on the the track this spring.

The axle held together, but was it running too hot? What type of differential was used? TORSEN, Salisbury, welded, etc. Moot point without actual recorded temps.

Most likely, you've picked the wrong class for your project. Feel free to build a GT car...the rules are right there in the GCR...you can modify and add all sorts of whizz-bang stuff, legally.

I can run a 3-link with a Mumford-link or Watts-link in the rear with a custom bevel gears in an alloy M30/Dana 30 axle and still be 100% ITB legal. I can also run trick aluminum Tilton style clutches and adjustble blade-type ARB's in ITB. All whiz-bang IT legal parts. GT/Production requires more engine work, not much to gain on the suspension end. I picked the correct class for my project. Same ITCS rules in the same GCR.

Sorry about the thread hijack, but isn't this about the letter written to allow additional oil coolers?

[JohnRW]

Doesn't everyone at some level? That's why folks search for loopholes and work arounds.

It's quite a leap of logic to describe adding non-compliant items as "loophole- & work around- bait".

The ITCS 37mm exhaust valve that is only 35mm from Volvo. Care to discuss more issues with the 240 and the ITCS? My reclassification request is in process and I'm awaiting the results.

...and...

A 142 is not the same as a 242.

...are "red herrings".

A Dana 30 solid axle rear is a Dana 30 solid axle rear, regardless of whether it's in a 140 or a 240. An error in the GCR re: valve diameter is just that...an error. Is the lack of language allowing trans & diff coolers an error ? LOL.

The axle held together, but was it running too hot? What type of differential was used? TORSEN, Salisbury, welded, etc. Moot point without actual recorded temps.

So...you've never raced, and you're putting together a car that, to this date, has never turned a wheel on a track, but you're finding all sorts of weak links that you wish to be addressed by changes in the rules (or as you suggested, you'll just ignore the rules), even though you've never had these problems, and those with experience with these elements have never had these problems ? Am I getting this right ? So, we should consume the time of the CRB, to solve phantom problems ?

I can run a 3-link with a Mumford-link or Watts-link in the rear with a custom bevel gears in an alloy M30/Dana 30 axle and still be 100% ITB legal. I can also run trick aluminum Tilton style clutches and adjustble blade-type ARB's in ITB.

A whole net-full of red herrings. Yeah..those are allowed by the current rules. So what ? Trans & diff coolers aren't.

Sorry about the thread hijack, but isn't this about the letter written to allow additional oil coolers?

LOL. Thread-trajectory nannying.

Overt message: You'll ignore the rules you don't like.

Subliminal message: You really wanted to build a GT car.

[rsportvolvo]

One weak link: the Dana 30. I crewed for a friends ITB 242 and he had axle issues. Other friends racing Volvos recommended looking at options to keep diff temps down as they've had issues. You didn't have any issues or didn't check temps to see if you did, not sure which.

240 has a different engine and gearbox. So the next item down the power path is the differential.

Sorry my approach doesn't meet your approval. But then again neither does my car choice. I apologize for not asking first.

Like I said, when I get to the track come by and protest away.