Hold it as a possibility that the comp board is the only people left with ANY idea what this class was (should be).
This talk is total senseless bullshit-what the fuck are you thinking?? Andy-please get off the ITAC-you don't belong there and neither did your vacuum line. Kirk-come on man! Don't you remember?
And regarding David Russel-who's long winded, "technically talented" ego driven posts I've endured all these years about a racecar that seems to exist in his mind only, IGNORE HIM! Pay no more attention to him, PLEASE!! And if he ever does get his 242 built, lets hope he puts an illegal diff cooler on his car just so somebody can protest him. What is this forum now, a playpen for the feeble-minded?
phil hunt
Seriously, Phil - even before the most recent kerblooie from the CRB, I'd pretty much resigned myself to the reality that my IT-Luddite ways were doomed, I was so outnumbered. As Greg has been saying for years, we will eventually end up with the IT that we (collectively) want.
I'm tired of feeling like that kid with his finger in the leaky dike. I'm tired of stupid, snotty washer bottle jokes. I'm tired of the whole thing. Chris asked about coolers at the ARRC. I told him to write the proposal because at this point, it's not IF we go sledding on that slope, it's WHEN. Unless a whole bunch of people decide they don't want to go there.
K
Personally, I can't see why people would be adverse to coolers. Heat kills particlularly in longer races. I really don't see this as a performance advantage. Somewhere along the line someone on the CRB thought it would be ok to add an oil cooler to the engine. What is the difference with other components in the driveline? For quite some time now I have been using REM polish on final drives to reduce temperature, but that isn't always that practical or affordable for some. To me it's like an accusump or a baffled pan on an engine. We do these things not to make them faster, but to make them dependable.
Chris "The Cat Killer" Childs
Angry Sheep Motorsports
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Personally I am not adverse to them. If they make components last longer then can they lower the cost for the racer. I was only against the the basic disregard for the IT rules set that popped up on the thread, a comparison of washer bottles to diff coolers, and naturally tried to have some fun with it.
Last edited by Ron Earp; 11-17-2009 at 12:16 PM.
Neither am I. However, there is a distinct philosophical issue that we should be all keep in mind...
But Chris, it *is* about performance. Are there not options available in final drives and limited slips that cost less, last longer, and don't get as hot, yet offer lesser performance?
The problem here is that if we use 'dependability' as a standard we open the door to lot of unintended consequences. In the name of 'dependability', can't we allow the VW Rabbit guys to use the larger-OD Audi hubs? After all, a replacement hub won't make the Rabbit faster, just more dependable. Can Dave Gran use a redesigned rear hub? Can the Porsche 944 guys use the later-model front control arms? After all, none of these parts will make the car faster, just "more dependable". Can any number of other cars point to a design flaw in THEIR car that causes them to have to replace specific parts more than others, and ask for that to be allowed "in the name of dependability"?
And if you argue it's not a model-specific problem, that ALL cars have this problem (and opportunity), then all I have to do is find one car that does not have a final-drive overheating problem to disprove your theory.
So the philosophical argument here, noted earlier in the thread, is neatly summed up by the "warts and all" description. You choose your car, you learn its limitations, and you prep within those limits. Can't use the much-faster final drive design and LSD without blowing up? Then choose one that lasts longer; it's your decision to make. Yep, you may not be as fast, but you'll certainly spend less money (after all, this is about cost and dependability, not performance, right...?) Within the current philosophy of the rules everyone works within the limits of their vehicles either by replacing the parts on a regular basis, or choosing a different car more suited to their limitations.
Again, I'm not opposed to the idea of diff coolers, as long as you recognize that it's a FAR more complex issue than about just "about dependability" or "spending less money". Since both of those options are currently available to you with different rear-end parts, it's really actually about performance, AND dependability AND about spending less money.
GA
I don't really care either way as the Mazda final drive does run hot. I have not killed one in 12 years so I have to disagree with the earlier post about their quality. I run a clutch type and do get heat with no problems if you change the fluid every weekend. I do know there was some junk on the market the last couple of years from someone who did them wrong.
I do disagree that there is not a performance advantage. Give me a cooler and a pump to circulate fluid and I will go faster. It is never as simple as it seems. Now back to my neutral corner.:026:
Steve Eckerich
ITS 18 Speedsource RX7
ITR RX8 (under construction)
...and let's not forget that the bastard cousin of the dependability canard, the "safety" canard. Same family tree, different diseased branch.
IMO, IT started "wandering off the reservation" when the concept of "some cars are just turds" was forgotten.
Performance modifiers ? "Adjustments" ? If you want to close up the gap between performance of different cars...if you want all cars to have a chance on the podium...thenyou should be using tight set of rules, such as many of the formula classes, or the word "spec", as in "Spec Miata", or "Spec Racer Ford".
Allow all sorts of rules concessions...and spend enough money...on a turd, and you can possibly make it fast. There are plenty of other classes that allow for that. Why screw up IT to gratuitously accomodate the selection of turds as race cars ?
I know..."I'm sooo 1990"....
(edit)
My current enduro car, a 1.6 Miata, is a reliable car...mostly. They're known differential-eaters, and I fondly recall...recently...sticking the third diff of the weekend (really) into the car and dropping it off the jackstands ~30 minutes BEFORE the start of a 12 hour race. Never lost one during a race weekend before that or after, but it's part of the game. It's the one turd-like part, in an otherwise solid package. And....yes...I know EXACTLY how hot my diff gets...been underneath the car with an IR temp gun during an enduro pit stop. "Proper assembly techniques" and "suitable lubes" mitigate the problem.
Last edited by JohnRW; 11-17-2009 at 01:25 PM.
To my knowledge, every Honda/Acura in ITC to ITR does just fine without a tranny/diff cooler.
BTW, can we get the ITA CRX and Civic guys bigger hubs? Maybe alternate brake rotors and calipers... they seem to go through brake components much faster at their higher (post-2005) weight.
Christian, looking for a "throwing popcorn" emoticon...
Christian in FL | Something white with Honda on the valve cover...
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Now this is the IT.com I used to love. People bitchin' about this rule or that interpretation. It's been a little slow here while everyone was in the sandbox. I kinda missed it.
opcorn:
Tom Sprecher
Of the two Benzes that run enduros, the one with a welded dif never had a problem. The one that runs slips has lost three.
Chuck
This.
Couple of points though. The Quad4 cars were given rear discs to replace their stock rear drums, allegedly because there was a problem with them. I've asked about this several times, but nobody seems to know when and why this seemingly radical departure from the IT philosophy was allowed. And IIRC, in response to a request for something that would increase engine longevity, the AS folks were pretty much told that increased longevity was deemed to be a competitive advantage.
BTW, I've ignored the nonsense from the guy w/ the 242 Volvo because, well, just because!
Found this link with some info about the brake thing HERE... nothing completely cut and dry but it sounds like a case of the safety and durability cards being played simultaneously.
Christian in FL | Something white with Honda on the valve cover...
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