Please help me understand the Audi issue...

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

I stoped Cc'ing the worldso you do not think you got the last reply from Bob. He was clear that displacement and the performance of the car is what his dicision was based on for the Audi... I will try to call you later today.

Raymond

[Knestis]

To be fair, Raymond, the CRB can make their decisions based on whatever information they want. They really ought to be transparent about them - voting to not make a change in response to a member's request rather than just ignoring that it happened - but that's their purview.

Now, if you don't like that they are applying different guidelines than the ITAC, address that to Club leadership. Andy is not the problem here.

K

[RSTPerformance]

To be fair, Raymond, the CRB can make their decisions based on whatever information they want. They really ought to be transparent about them - voting to not make a change in response to a member's request rather than just ignoring that it happened - but that's their purview.

Now, if you don't like that they are applying different guidelines than the ITAC, address that to Club leadership. Andy is not the problem here.

K

Agreed Andy is not the problem... Also agreed that the CRB uses whatever process it wants and has the authority to do so. Also think that it should change...

First thing though that needs to happen is our requests need to be acnowledged in Fasttrack and the CRB actually has to start making decisions instead of BS everyone with something different every month.

Raymond

[Bill Miller]

Andy-

I stoped Cc'ing the worldso you do not think you got the last reply from Bob. He was clear that displacement and the performance of the car is what his dicision was based on for the Audi... I will try to call you later today.

Raymond

Raymond,

I think I know where Bob came up with the weight / displacement thing. Take a look at STU, that's how they determine weights on cars, based on engine displacement.

[Andy Bettencourt]

And again, these guys operate with dispalcement as consideration all the time. Unfortunately, we are at odds with how we consider it. For me, cc's have an impact when you can run huge compression, open cams, change intakes and ungrade carbs and throttle bodies. In IT, you can have the 'biggest' motor in class but if you have sucky stock cam specs, a crappy intake manifold and are sipping throug a straw, the size of your slugs don't mean crap.

[Knestis]

The way I remember displacement coming up in conversation re: the Audi, the belief was that it's essentially 5/4ths of a MkI GTI. Do the math! It'll make 1.25x whatever power the Golf does. Right...?

K

[pfcs]

RSTPerformance Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfcs
What?? If it's factory rated 120hp, how is that? Do you mean @wheels?

Factory is 110 @ 5500 RPM... Add the Quattro header and you get 115 @ 5500 RPM. Not sure where 120hp comes from?

Raymond
__________________


Raymond: Per VW/Audi factory electronic parts catalog, some listings:
("engine code" section which is 4rth item in dropped menu; accessed by clicking on lined page icon just to right of pencil icon)
Coupe, 1/81 to 12/83: WE eng code, 2.1L 79kW/107hp
Coupe, 1/84 to 6/30/87: KX eng code, 2.23L 88kW/120hp This is the classified ITB car
Other 5cy SA motors from the same time frame that resemble yours:
Coupe, 2/87 to 7/87 NF eng code, 2.3L 98kW/133hp!!
5000, 8/84-9/86: KZ eng code, 2.23L 85kW/115hp
5000 11/84-3/87: KH eng code, 2.2L 100kW/136p!!
4000 11/84 to 03/87&Quantum, 85-88 2.2L 89kW/121hp
Coupe
I scanned the entire list to be certain I \didn't miss other Coupe engines. Excepting 20Valve and turbo, there aren't any others listed.

[Bill Miller]

The way I remember displacement coming up in conversation re: the Audi, the belief was that it's essentially 5/4ths of a MkI GTI. Do the math! It'll make 1.25x whatever power the Golf does. Right...?

K

Math is closer to 1.22 (from either a displacement perspective or a factory hp perspective). But given the way that the Mk I GTI got boned, I'm not sure that your example is a good one. Or given the way the Audi is getting boned, maybe it is....

[Andy Bettencourt]

In my mind, we had no data so you go with 1.25. A logical argument was made that the arcitechture was similar to (IIRC) another Golf that was at 30% so putting this one at 30% makes a small weight reduction both logical and pallitable.

[Bill Miller]

In my mind, we had no data so you go with 1.25. A logical argument was made that the arcitechture was similar to (IIRC) another Golf that was at 30% so putting this one at 30% makes a small weight reduction both logical and pallitable.

So how does that jive w/ the Rabbit GTI @ 35%-39%, depending on what you use for driveline loss (18%-20%)? BTW Andy, what do you guys use for driveline loss when you get whp #'s from a dyno?

[rcc85]

Are the Audi's really 120 hp stock??!!

Bob Clifton
#05 ITB Dodge Daytona
99 hp stock/2630 lbs per the GCR

[pfcs]

THAT, as they say, is the question.
The information in ETKA is pretty official and reliable.
The secondary question is "Was the wrong assumption made about the multiplier?"
And third-thru some mixing of parts (not necessarily intentional)was a killer engine created. There are so many combinations/iterations of this series of engines that anything is possible.
I can vouch for the effectiveness of the Blethem Coupes-they certainly get down the road! And I can promise you they get the wheels driven off them, sometimes literally!

[Andy Bettencourt]

So how does that jive w/ the Rabbit GTI @ 35%-39%, depending on what you use for driveline loss (18%-20%)? BTW Andy, what do you guys use for driveline loss when you get whp #'s from a dyno?

Bill,

VW guys with those cars said 100whp possible as has been stated. 15% for FWD and 18% for RWD is used throughout when needed.

[Andy Bettencourt]

THAT, as they say, is the question.
The information in ETKA is pretty official and reliable.
The secondary question is "Was the wrong assumption made about the multiplier?"
And third-thru some mixing of parts (not necessarily intentional)was a killer engine created. There are so many combinations/iterations of this series of engines that anything is possible.
I can vouch for the effectiveness of the Blethem Coupes-they certainly get down the road! And I can promise you they get the wheels driven off them, sometimes literally!

You guys are mixing cars. The Audi's in question are 110hp stock.
There was never an assumption made about the multiplier on this car as it has never been through the process wrt its current weight.
Legality (intentional or otherwise) is ALWAYS a danger when looking at singular examples of on-track as 'evidence'. Just another reason the ITAC hates it until it becomes commonplace.

[pfcs]

Andy-what is your source for the 110hp spec?
The spec I refer to is from the official/VW-Audi factory parts program currently used by all VW/Audi dealers and produced by the manufacturer.

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

VW guys with those cars said 100whp possible as has been stated. 15% for FWD and 18% for RWD is used throughout when needed.

If that's the case Andy, can you please explain how the Rabbit GTI gets to 2080#?

100whp / .85 =approx. 118chp * 17 = 2000# - 50# FWD = 1950#. What am I missing here?

[Andy Bettencourt]

If that's the case Andy, can you please explain how the Rabbit GTI gets to 2080#?

100whp / .85 =approx. 118chp * 17 = 2000# - 50# FWD = 1950#. What am I missing here?

Well we must be missing something. Is that the car that got reduced to 2080 from some other number?

[Bill Miller]

Well we must be missing something. Is that the car that got reduced to 2080 from some other number?

Yes it is Andy, it went from 2180# to 2080# during tGR, IIRC.

/edit

And if 1950# turns out to be the process weight, even w/ the increased power gain multipler, that puts it @ 1770# w/o driver. I don't think it's possible to get one of those cars that light w/ just IT allowed stuff. Curb weight on those cars was just a tick over 2000#. IIRC, my HP Rabbit is ~1750# w/o driver, and that's w/ a fiberglass hood, totally gutted interior, including doors, and lexan all around.

[StephenB]

__________________


Raymond: Per VW/Audi factory electronic parts catalog, some listings:
("engine code" section which is 4rth item in dropped menu; accessed by clicking on lined page icon just to right of pencil icon)

Coupe, 1/81 to 12/83: WE eng code, 2.1L 79kW/107hp ITB CAR LISTED IN GCR
Coupe, 1/84 to 6/30/87: KX eng code, 2.23L 88kW/120hp This is the classified ITB car I am almost positive that this is INCORRECT DATA. I will get the correct data tomorrow for you.

Other 5cy SA motors from the same time frame that resemble yours:
Coupe, 2/87 to 7/87 NF eng code, 2.3L 98kW/133hp!! This is in the GCR as an ITA car. 60 over pistons... pretty easy to see a cheater here!

5000, 8/84-9/86: KZ eng code, 2.23L 85kW/115hp Really? how can you use this as an example Totally different car and intake system easy to see from the outside.
5000 11/84-3/87: KH eng code, 2.2L 100kW/136p!! Again? Totally different car and intake system easy to see from the outside.

4000 11/84 to 03/87&Quantum, 85-88 2.2L 89kW/121hp What the hell is this? Give me an engine code... is it a VW or an Audi??

I scanned the entire list to be certain I didn't miss other Coupe engines. Excepting 20Valve and turbo, there aren't any others listed.

This will turn up ugly next year guarenteed. you will find out what is in my car AFTER I beat my time from this year at a certain track.

[pfcs]

"4000 11/84 to 03/87&Quantum, 85-88 2.2L 89kW/121hp What the hell is this? Give me an engine code... is it a VW or an Audi??"

VW Quantum/Audi 4000: both had code JT engines, 121hp.

And my point about the other engines was not that the entire engine might be used (although that's still possible), but that there's a lot of interchangeable parts out there for the 5 cyl family and many possible brews are possible.
Even today, when we need a VW/Audi 1.8T 20v head, the junkyards supply whatever they have, expecting us to make it work. (there are at least 6 different combinations, all with the same valve size, all interchangeable, but having different size and configurations of ports, camshaft specs, etc.)

Another point that lends credence to the 120hp Cpe spec: the applicable Golf ITB engines are spe'd in ETKA just as everyone else expects them to be: 1.8L Digifant RV mtr w/single downpipe manifold 105hp; PF mtr w/double downpipe manifold 107hp.

Don't feel picked on please. Hold it as a possibility that there is a real anomaly at play here. I'm as ready as the next person to see black helicopters when it comes to club racing!
But in the case of the Coupe, maybe there really is something amiss. 5hp=100lbs?