Please help me understand the Audi issue...

[RSTPerformance]

Plenty of people have had extreme success with their cars including current CRB members IE: Peter Keene, look at the history of his Honda. I see this as all political BULLSHIT and I am not accepting it.

Other examples of "exceptional" success

Andy B, Kirk, Greg Amy, Sam Moore, the Moses, Beren P, Scott carlson, etc have all had great success... Just because don't use a dyno does not mean that we havn't had great the same reasons... Great, well set up car/driver combo.

Raymond

[gran racing]

Ray and Stephen,
You both know or should know that I have a tremendous respect for your driving abilities, and the way in which you race. I’ve always wondered what you’d both do behind the wheel of a high level built car – actually I already know.

So with a that said... What facts am I missing? Why should this car/team combo be influencing the IT classification process and why does anyone still feel that the car should not be run through the same process that all the others that now easily beat us?

Since you’re looking for some type of explaination of where this is coming from, I’ll give you my speculation of the Audi situation. When reading this, please understand that these are NOT ALL my personal beliefs.

You guys did well, darn well at the ARRC and brought the spotlight onto you. I believe a decent portion of the attention was based on the back straight speed the Audis showed and not just about the lap times. The cars never finished and had an opportunity to be put through the tech shed.

You put a considerable amount of time and effort building the Audis. Given your build budget, you’ve done quite an amazing job and in my mind is what IT should be all about. While I don’t doubt your engine builds are good, I personally believe a pro built engine by someone such as Flatout or Kessler Engineering would be better. Then there’s the tuning aspect. You eminently have never done engine tuning on a dyno, where gains are there to be had. I know when my engine assembly was complete, that was only a portion of the process. Even this year when I was happy with my power results we put it back on the dyno and tried a few new things (advanced timing and a couple other items). This makes people wonder what could happen with a full on built Audi. IF there truly were more power to be had, how much? Maybe the reality is it’s trivial compared to what you guys have but it leaves room for people to speculate or “have fear of.” I’d actually prefer you don’t find out. J

On the flip side, Chris Albin looked into building an Audi (he also personally owned one), but concluded it wasn’t one of the cars to have and decided to build a Golf III. Based on what others believe and makes sense, there’s another Audi which benefited by a larger budget and pro race car builder – Shine. For whatever reason, that car hasn’t done what some might have anticipated (the key to this is…) including straight line speed. Why? Who knows. Maybe during the build they were conservative. Maybe given the amount of time you guys have been married to these cars, even on a limited budget you can do better than their pro build. I personally don’t know what type of effort was put into that Shine Audi.

Ironically the other item supporting the Audi weight reduction is we don’t know for sure if the Audis are / were legal. This is yet another key reason why we can’t use results to determine a car’s weight. For the record, I do not think for one second that either of you would do anything illegal on purpose. I’ve heard people say that some other block could be used which is extremely difficult to know that it’s different, so much so a person could accidently use it without even knowing. Again, I’m not saying this is what I believe to be the case but don’t know.

* personal aside – not knowing isn’t a knock. You don’t truly know if I’m legal. Even when someone mentioned about my car, he rightfully said “I think it’s legal, but don’t know. We both can go into a full tear down confident, but until that happens others won’t know and there will always be some amount of wondering.

In order to help bring this to an end, I suggested doing something a bit unique. After a key event invite you both to bring the Audis to either Flatout or Kessler’s shop. Have them check to ensure the block is the right one (no idea what’s involved in doing that) and put both cars on the dyno. The purpose would not have been to do a tear down or a hunt for illegal parts rather a casual way to get some HP and torque numbers. You mentioned being okay with bringing it to a dyno so thought maybe something like this could be agreed upon. I even offered to pay some money to help you guys make this happen. After doing this the ITAC would have dyno numbers that they obtained and at least have more ammunition / facts to base things on.

My personal feelings - assuming the 5 cyl goes into the process equasion and torque, if the yard stick says remove 200 lbs from the Audi do it. But at the same token (and again, personal feelings), I want my car to be given the same opportunity to go up against that yard stick.

[StephenB]

I had a response written but hit the wrong button and I need to go to work... so some quick facts to correct some posts above.

FACT I went to the tech shed in 2004 and finished 3rd. The tech shed made the choice not to tear me down.
FACT the shine racing Audi is as fast as us in a straight line along with the honda, volvo, BMW, Golf, should I go on? The simple fact is that the Shine built Audi does not have a Good suspension in it. wether you feel it is pro built or not it's not as good.
FACT John Buffam, Frank Sprongle, Force 5 Auto and other PRO Rally teams have had a significant influence in our tuning and engine builds. Our "Heads" have been built by REAL PRO shops that build engines for PRO-Racing efforts not just SCCA regional racing.
FACT never been on a dyno and you are probably right... we are leaving a little, not a lot, on the table.
FACT Chris Albin was on the ITAC that decided on the undocumented weight of his ITB VW which went 1 second faster in the following year ARRC.
FACT Idiots in regards to Audi engines THINK yo ucan screw it up but the fact is the blocks you are referencing are the same. However just to keep those idiots happy we fixed that and you can check the numbers on the block, they are visible when the hood is open. No mysteries in that.
FACT The Honda was in ITB then moved to ITA due to on track performance, then was moved back to ITB. The move back to ITB involved Peter Keene who owned the very one that had the previous CRB members decide to move it up to ITA. No documention I'm sure

If you honestly ask me I would say the GOLF and Prelude are the two cars to have in ITB that are the current overdogs based on on track performance... both driven by CRB members.... how is it that 2 CRB members, of the what 6 or 7, drive in ITB and an ITB car F'd up the entire process?

Stephen

[gran racing]

Stephen, I didn’t create this post and ask why some people are arriving at their perception. I also didn’t say they are all accurate. However I think this is how some are coming to their conclusions. I also won't argue with you about the block - I have no freaking clue. If I had been truly that concerned with it, I'd have done my research and asked you guys nicely to let me take a look.

If you honestly ask me I would say the GOLF and Prelude are the two cars to have in ITB that are the current overdogs based on on track performance... both driven by CRB members.... how is it that 2 CRB members, of the what 6 or 7, drive in ITB and an ITB car F'd up the entire process?

So you agree with using on track performance????

To correct one of your facts, the Honda you mention above is an Accord Lxi and not a Prelude. The ONLY Preludes I’m aware of being run are mine and one other in the N.E. who hasn’t been at the track in a couple of years. No one on the CRB is racing a Prelude.

The GCR: Honda Accord Lxi 12V Coupe & HB (86-89). 2550 lbs min weight.

Again, for the record I also asked for my Prelude to be run through the process and let the chips fall where they may.

[MMiskoe]

Ray & Stephen:

Can you easily get 200# out of your car? If so I'd be very curious to see what happens if you were to do a back to back test with the current weight and the process weight.

Its possible that the reduction in weight might not be as big a gain as people think.

Plus it might put to bed some of the concerns, at least people could shrug & say "it mght be wrong, but so what"

[Xian]

Peter and Deuce Keene... one drives a Prelude and the other an Accord LXi, no? Or am I mis-remembering?

[lateapex911]

Peter and Deuce Keene... one drives a Prelude and the other an Accord LXi, no? Or am I mis-remembering?

I think both are in Accords.

[Charlie Broring]

There is another good example of Audi performance potential from some years back in the MARRS series. At one time Dick Shine built an A2 Golf for Don Barrack and at the same time did an extensive rebuild on Jim Gilly's Audi. Both were pretty much state of the art full on builds and ran together at Summit. The drivers raced head to head, tried each others cars, and a consensus of relative performance was reached. The Golf handled a bit better, but the Audi had more power with an over all edge given to the Audi. I remember that Mr Shine held the Audi in pretty high regard at that time. Unfortunately, Jim's Audi met an untimely end at Mid Ohio, but I remember it as being a very competitive car.

So, if the Audi is already at least a decent ITB car, why should it get a whopping 2-300 pound weight reduction? Is it posible that the "Process" doesn't always serve ITB well?

Charlie

[lateapex911]

If you honestly ask me I would say the GOLF and Prelude are the two cars to have in ITB that are the current overdogs based on on track performance... both driven by CRB members.... how is it that 2 CRB members, of the what 6 or 7, drive in ITB and an ITB car F'd up the entire process?

Stephen

Albin drives A Golf. Not sure which Golf you are referring to. And no ITAC or CRB member drives a Prelude.

[IPRESS]

Albin drives A Golf. Not sure which Golf you are referring to. And no ITAC or CRB member drives a Prelude.

I tried not to post, but Jake, the pitch you threw was a 80 mph fastball with no movement.
CORRECTION: "Albin drives the F'ing wheels off a Golf."

[lateapex911]

Albin drives A Golf. Not sure which Golf you are referring to. And no ITAC or CRB member drives a Prelude.

Just rereading this. I think you are insinuating that they blocked the weight change based on personal gains. (As in you won't beat them if you are overweight)

I don't think I buy that. I think the CRB honestly looked at your car and thought, "Isn't that car pretty darn fast as it is? 200 pounds? Seems like a lot. Doesn't pass the sniff test. No"

Pursuant to that thought process is that many other cars seem to have been dropped from the agenda that were up for adjustment as well, and ALL weren't ITB cars.

I don't honestly know what's up with those cars. It could be that they just didn't get on the list, or that they got dropped or who knows. Hopefully we'll find out.

[seckerich]

Call the CRB head and find out, pretty simple. Why do we wait another 30 days to find out what they should be communicating to our adhoc?

[benspeed]

The men or women racing in IT who are in positions of authority or power over IT rules should recuse themselves from any rules changes effecting the classes in which they race.

That's just common sense in my opinion.

[gran racing]

So where does that put the ITAC Ben?

I don't think it's a bad thing to have IT people involved with where the future of the category goes. Like ITAC members do, they take themselves out of conversations dealing with cars they personally race.

[DavidM]

The old saying is "Horsepower sells engines. Torque wins motor races." Peak horsepower is not directly related to how well a car accelerates.

And that saying seems to be something of a misnomer. There was a good discussion on here about the affect of gearing on acceleration. High hp/low torque cars that rev high can still generate good torque/acceleration at the wheels via appropriate gearing. High torque cars typically don't rev that high and thus gearing has less of an effect. At least that's how I interpreted the discussion.

The men or women racing in IT who are in positions of authority or power over IT rules should recuse themselves from any rules changes effecting the classes in which they race.

That's just common sense in my opinion.

I definitely think this is what should happen, but since we don't have access to records of CRB votes we don't know. Unfortunately, I don't think this was done.

David

[jjjanos]

Just rereading this. I think you are insinuating that they blocked the weight change based on personal gains. (As in you won't beat them if you are overweight)

Not saying that this happened this time, but it wouldn't be the first time that self-interest entered into what was decided by the various SCCA boards.

That was the nice thing about "the process." It was all laid out and you would know why a car got a specific weight.

[Andy Bettencourt]

That was the nice thing about "the process." It was all laid out and you would know why a car got a specific weight.

And even if you thought it was heavy or not 'the' car for the class, you (the collective you) are ok with that right? Better to be transperant and consistant than try and 'wiggle' the right number with no backup...because at the end of the day, neither are gonna be right.

[StephenB]

Just rereading this. I think you are insinuating that they blocked the weight change based on personal gains. (As in you won't beat them if you are overweight)

I don't think I buy that. I think the CRB honestly looked at your car and thought, "Isn't that car pretty darn fast as it is? 200 pounds? Seems like a lot. Doesn't pass the sniff test. No"

Jake,

YES and No... I don't think they think I personally will be faster in the future and that they want or need to protect themselves but I think they do wonder what if that car was classified with 200lbs less all those years ago... I wouldn't have had a chance against them. Basically I think the 1 weekend, 1 session, 5 years ago at 1 race they made an observation and are sticking with it. I think that if I did not go to those 2 events things would be different. So YES they have formulated the opinion of the potential of the car because they raced with me and now they are reluctant to change things and no I dont think it is to protect themselves on track, afterall I never plan on going down that way with my current career expectations.


Matt... Very difficult to get 200lbs out. we do have lead inside and we do have power windows and a spare in it but with all that I am guessing only a 100lbs or so. I do think you are on to something and will most likely try it next season. I have run 50lbs light and up to 75lbs heavy and it didn't seem to make a difference.

Dave and to all others... Sorry about mistaking the prelude and Accord. they look like the exact same car to me. What is the differences? what are the wieghts of each? Was the prelude classed after the flip flop of the Accord?

Raymond you are forgetting about your 20V head you stuck on yours aren't you? Actually you really are forgetting about the early coupe mechanical head vs our heads Ours is much better which was used from I believe 82.5 through 87.5 on various models of cars.


Stephen


PS: I still am fine with the decision not to process ANY of the cars currently classified, at least it is a decision which the CRB hasn't had the balls to do all year. If other cars do get reclassified then all hell will brake loose and I will be pissed.

[Bill Miller]

Just rereading this. I think you are insinuating that they blocked the weight change based on personal gains. (As in you won't beat them if you are overweight)

Well Jake, you were on the ITAC when Albin claimed that a Rabbit GTI could make 100 whp w/ no other documentation.

As far as him driving the wheels off his Golf, yeah, looks like he can do that, right into the side of another car.