and it’s all bullshit………

[dj10]

Jerry, now this is a opinion that is respected.
You are right we should be more involved how our regions plan and charge for races, and I plan on reviewing our regions policy when it comes to withdrawals. I do believe that transmission problems and saftey issures that cropped but were not found until late Thrusday race car were valid issues but the Cincinnatti Region didn't even what to hear them. So not only did I have to fork out money to replace a transmission I had to order other parts to make the car safe and they still hit me with a $50.00 penelty.

[RSTPerformance]

I would be VERY turned off of any race that was charging a cancelation fee... The money part of registration should not be that difficult. Most of the work is getting the entrants info together for t&s. I would thnk requiring everyone to pay at the track would be the easiest system.

Dan- let's mess em up real good!!! Everyone post the races that have penalty fees, we will all register and skip the payment options... The info will be all entered, the region will be excited with all these extra Pre registered cars and oops we never showed... They can't hit you up for a late cancelation fee as technically (in most regions) you are not an official enterant until you have paid!

Raymond "thanks Dick, Glad to be in NER" Blethen

[jjjanos]

Given the ease of electronic crediting, there really is no reason for any region to

1. Process the financial part of the entry prior to the event
2. Not refund the full amount if notice of withdrawal is made prior to midnight Friday evening, going into Saturday.

If, however, the Region has turned away entrants because of your entry, then, regardless of when you withdrew, you should be on the hook for the full amount if you pre-registered and you occupied a slot that was turned away.

That being said, one reason to retain part of the entry fee has to do with credit card transaction fees. If the Region processes such an entry, it gets dinged something like 3% by the CCC. If they then process a refund, they get hit with another 2-3%. Which suggests that charging the card prior to the event is a stupid policy. None-the-less, if the Region does process the entry - they should retain the bank fees.

Lots of businesses charge you a cancellation fee - airlines, hotels...especially if booked through a site like travelocity.

[BruceG]

Given the ease of electronic crediting, there really is no reason for any region to

1. Process the financial part of the entry prior to the event
2. Not refund the full amount if notice of withdrawal is made prior to midnight Friday evening, going into Saturday.

If, however, the Region has turned away entrants because of your entry, then, regardless of when you withdrew, you should be on the hook for the full amount if you pre-registered and you occupied a slot that was turned away.

That being said, one reason to retain part of the entry fee has to do with credit card transaction fees. If the Region processes such an entry, it gets dinged something like 3% by the CCC. If they then process a refund, they get hit with another 2-3%. Which suggests that charging the card prior to the event is a stupid policy. None-the-less, if the Region does process the entry - they should retain the bank fees.

Lots of businesses charge you a cancellation fee - airlines, hotels...especially if booked through a site like travelocity.

Hell, both INNS in Lakeville, CT(Interlaken and Wake Robin) charge you 50% up front which you won't get back if you cancel for any reason(good chance to give them swine flu, I guess...LOL). On top of an already hefty price for average accomodations, I quess they figure with the prep school parents crowd(Hotchkiss, Salibury,Millbrook, Indian Mountain, Berkshire School,etc) they don't care so much about the Skip Barber, ALMS, SCCA crowd at LRP. The only other local choice is the Sharon Motor Lodge(Bates Motel) that charges $150 per night for hell on earth!!

Sorry to steer this thread in a slightly different direction but we were talking about overcharging...LOL. The new Comfort INN in Great Barrington, Mass is $250 per night. Perhaps Skippy can put a Trump Tower right at trackside so at least we won't have to travel so much.

[dj10]

Hey you REGIONS!!!!! READ WHAT YOUR MEMBER ARE TELLING YOU!!!!!!

WE ARE THE SCCA MEMBERS AND YOU BETTER START LISTENING!!!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

[Z3_GoCar]

Hey you REGIONS!!!!! READ WHAT YOUR MEMBER ARE TELLING YOU!!!!!!

WE ARE THE SCCA MEMBERS AND YOU BETTER START LISTENING!!!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

HEY DAN,

YOU NEED TO COME WEST YOUNG MAN. OUR POLICY IS NO WHEEL ON THE TRACK-YOU

GET A FULL REFUND! ( )

Break the race car on a Friday test day, and you'll get to keep all your money for the weekend. Have a bad break during the race on Saturday, then you'll get your money back for Sunday. Just think you'll get just enough people on the track to keep it interesting with out the long lines of slow cars in their own battle for position. Hey property prices are at an all time low too.

[seckerich]

Hey you REGIONS!!!!! READ WHAT YOUR MEMBER ARE TELLING YOU!!!!!!

WE ARE THE SCCA MEMBERS AND YOU BETTER START LISTENING!!!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

Cuts both ways Dan. Wait until the region has to shell out $30,000 plus to rent a track and has to pay if you show up or not. It is a huge risk for many regions to run a race. My region does not charge any fees but some must to take the risk. You will soon find less places to play and less track options if you hang the region out. A polite note or phone call to the registrar usually goes a long way to some leeway. As a region we have to commit to a weekend a year in advance and are on the hook for the rent either way. Your region just may tell you it is no longer worth the risk and you can just travel farther to race.

[KelleyHux]

As a registrar, I've watched this thread with interest ... I guess in MiDiv we're pretty lucky. Most everyone has a pretty fair refund policy.

If you've never been a registrar, you cannot fully understand the amount of work that goes into Registration for a weekend. Despite repeated efforts to streamline the paperwork flow, there is still a tremendous amount of paper which moves on any race given weekend. I'd be glad to show you - even if you just have about an hour on Friday night to help out. Keep in mind, not all of us are blessed with race courses which have dependable internet service at a reasonable (i.e. free) price.

On-line registration has been wonderful. Everyone has complaints about almost any on-line registration system - none of them are perfect. As a group they do a great job of making the driver responsible for entering most of his/her information, and at least putting a little bit of effort forward to enter the race. I especially like the on-line entry list, as that has dramatically reduced the calls about "Is so-and-so entered for the weekend?".

Yes, we still have some drivers who do not choose to use computers and/or the internet, so they still register the old fashioned way - by phone. They are genuinely appreciative when I tell them that it sufficient, and they do not need to do anything else except come to the track prepared to pay their entry fee.

My race group, MVRG (consisting of the Des Moines Valley Region and the Nebraska Region), cannot take credit cards at the track. If you enter on-line, you can pay by credit card, but it is not required. If you wish to wait to pay at the track, that's fine - but it must be by check or in cash. Yes, I've sent a few folks off to find an ATM because they didn't come prepared to pay by check or in cash. And, yes, the confirmation email I send to each driver clearly states that any money paid at the track must be by check or in cash.

I can only speak for the registration policies of the Missouri Valley Race Group (MVRG - made up of Des Moines Valley Region and Nebraska Region), but I think they're very generous. If you let the registrar know either by entering on-line, mailing an entry, calling/leaving a message on my phone, or at the very least, sending an email that you will attend the event prior to the opening of at-track registration on Friday at 5:00 PM - no late fee. (Yes, I've had a few messages sent from blackberrys at the track, before 5PM, saving the $40 late fee.) If you simply walk in the door without letting me know you are coming, I'm sorry - but per the MVRG board's wishes I have to charge you a late fee. I keep telling them to drop the late fee, but so far - no luck.

If you break on the test day, and come tell me that you're cancelling - full refund. If you paid by check, I'll return your check.
If you break during the morning session on Saturday for a Regional / National weekend, and you're only entered for the National - I'll change you to a regional only entry - refunding you the difference between the two entry fees ($60 or so). Or, better yet, if you paid by check, bring me a new check, and I'll trade checks with you. That's less paperwork for me, you, and the treasurer.
If you are a paid driver who no-shows, you will get a full refund. However, we do like to know that you won't be there, even if it's after registration opens. (Mostly, 'cause we like to know that you're not in a ditch somewhere between home and the race track.)

All requests for refunds must be made by the close of registration on Sunday.

I guess the biggest point to my rant is that I'd much rather have you enter early. I can get all of the T&S paperwork done prior to the event. The stewards have an idea whether or not groups need to be changed, etc. There's lots of good reasons to enter early. Someone mentioned about the counts for the caterer for Saturday night dinner, and don't forget ... there's planning that goes into calculating how much beer and/or other beverages to buy!

We had to cancel a race last year due to a low turnout - and having been the one who personally called every single one of the drivers who had entered - it's a very difficult decision to pull the plug on an event. I struggled with whether or not to drive the almost 300 miles to be at the gate, just in case someone didn't get the word that the event was cancelled. Lucky for me, I had some local folks who said they would take care of it. My biggest concern was someone who towed from a long distance, only to discover when they pulled in at the track that the event was cancelled.

If you have constructive suggestions on ways Registration can run more smoothly and with less effort for all involved, I'm very interested. Please don't hesitate to shoot me a PM, or send an email to KelleyHux at yahoo dot com.

Thanks for reading this far,
Kelley Huxtable
DMVR
"PLAY SAFE"

[jumbojimbo]

Given the ease of electronic crediting, there really is no reason for any region to

1. Process the financial part of the entry prior to the event

This ignores the financial reality of organizing a race. Many race tracks (Mid Ohio included) want their deposit money well in advance of the race. If a region doesn't get $ from pre-entries, then the region has to have a $20,000+ reserve from year to year to even be able make the deposit. In some regions, individual members float the region a loan just to make the deposit.

What you are saying is that you would rather see regions not put on events then help pay the deposit for the race you are planning to run.

[tom91ita]

Kelly,

i do want to thank you for your efforts even if i don't drive in your area.

the online registration is very much appreciated. after dabbling with nasa for a couple of years, that was a major advantage they have in convenience.

it also makes it easier to enter the track. if you are pre-registered, you could pull up to the gate, sign the track waiver and nasa waiver and you were in.

not sure how that would work within SCCA. perhaps if we had the hard-card for signed waivers?

thanks again,

tom

[jjjanos]

This ignores the financial reality of organizing a race.

I am aware of these realities.

Many race tracks (Mid Ohio included) want their deposit money well in advance of the race.

So opening registration 3 weeks prior to an event really doesn't help make the deposit required well in-advance of the event, does it?

If a region doesn't get $ from pre-entries, then the region has to have a $20,000+ reserve from year to year to even be able make the deposit.

I would argue that a Region that lacks a year-end surplus to reserve its race dates is a Region that is suffering from mismanagement a/o is really too small and should co-sanction/combine with another Region in a similar situation.

In some regions, individual members float the region a loan just to make the deposit.

See above.

What you are saying is that you would rather see regions not put on events then help pay the deposit for the race you are planning to run.

See above.

[Wreckerboy]

I've been down this road in a much smaller organization (EMRA) and seen the ugly financial realities. EMRA does not demand pre-registration, and does refund your entry if you chose not to turn a wheel after you pay.

Reality #1: Want a date in July? Be prepared to pay for at least 50% of it (varies by track) in the January-March timeframe. In the northeast, that means the organization has to do it on income from the previous year. Oh, and if you cancel the event too late you get to pay for the date anyway, or some huge portion of it.

Reality #2: Insurance. It costs a lot, and typically they want a huge amount of that up front as well. IIRC, EMRA's insurance is around $35K per year. And you can't rent a track around these parts without proof of insurance. So it has to be paid for early on.

The ugly reality is that a typical 10 weekend EMRA season chews up $50K or more before the first event of the year. And EMRA is small potatoes compared to SCCA and NASA in terms of size and expense.

I am aware of these realities.

So opening registration 3 weeks prior to an event really doesn't help make the deposit required well in-advance of the event, does it?

No, but that is not the idea of a non-refund policy. It is to cover the organization's ass in the event of a fiscal, for lack of a better word, washout. It is designed to encourage the driver to attend and spend. For example, EMRA had an event at LRP a few years ago that had rain on race day (EMRA did/does two day weekends, one day Time Trial, one day race) which resulted in about 12 cars showing up and running. There probably were in excess of 60 "pre-registered." LRP is expensive, hugely so, with rentals in the $35K per day range at the time. Forgive me if I don't recall the exact amount. There is no discount from LRP for bad weather.

It would have damn near put us out of business, but fortunately the TT the day before was a huge success (except for me, I rolled the damn car going down the hill ) and EMRA lived to see another day.

I'm not involved over there as actively as before, but I do know that like a lot of smaller organizations they are suffering in this economy. It's not bad money management, it is the desire to put on affordable events and remain around to do so from year to year.

[tdw6974]

[quote=BruceG;295315]Hell, both INNS in Lakeville, CT(Interlaken and Wake Robin) charge you 50% up front which you won't get back if you cancel for any reason(good chance to give them swine flu, I guess...LOL). On top of an already hefty price for average accomodations, I quess they figure with the prep school parents crowd(Hotchkiss, Salibury,Millbrook, Indian Mountain, Berkshire School,etc) they don't care so much about the Skip Barber, ALMS, SCCA crowd at LRP. The only other local choice is the Sharon Motor Lodge(Bates Motel) that charges $150 per night for hell on earth!!

Try The willows down the road for a thrill

[jumbojimbo]

...
So opening registration 3 weeks prior to an event really doesn't help make the deposit required well in-advance of the event, does it?

I'll give you that one. Besides cash flow there are many reasons to have registration open early. But you painted with a broad brush, essentially saying that no region should process financial transactions before race day. I disagree with that part. The region needs the cash flow.

...
I would argue that a Region that lacks a year-end surplus to reserve its race dates ... (insert unlikley solution here)

That's fine, but you just cancelled a couple of GL races. I'm not saying I like it this way, but if we don't pre-register and help regions fund their deposit, the race will eventually be lost never to return. Unless you think that only the 1 or 2 big regions should be putting on races in each division.

It's easy to make demands on how it should be when you don't have $30,000 on the line and a chance to bankrupt your region. Again, maybe a region in that situation shouldn't be putting on a race. But then we'll be whining about the lack of races. Cutting off our nose to spite our face.

[jjjanos]

I'll give you that one. Besides cash flow there are many reasons to have registration open early. But you painted with a broad brush, essentially saying that no region should process financial transactions before race day. I disagree with that part. The region needs the cash flow.

Opening registration and taking money are distinct actions. I didn't essentially say no financial processing prior to the event, that is exactly what I said. A Region that needs the cash flow that badly is living life to close to the edge.

That's fine, but you just cancelled a couple of GL races.

Why? Because the Regions won't cooperate and hold an event together?

Unless you think that only the 1 or 2 big regions should be putting on races in each division.

It's easy to make demands on how it should be when you don't have $30,000 on the line and a chance to bankrupt your region. Again, maybe a region in that situation shouldn't be putting on a race. But then we'll be whining about the lack of races. Cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Who hosts the event only determines who has financial skin in the game and, possibly, the faces that carry the titles. The field hands generally don't care who hosts the event, unless their is something wrong with the management (see below) and drivers, IMO, don't care either unless their is something wrong with the management.

When I lived in the old CenDiv (pre-Gingerman days), you saw the same faces at Waterford for DET regionals and schools that you saw at Grattan for the WMR and DET events. Grattan got some folks who wouldn't make the trip to Waterford, but they still showed for the annual DET event at Grattan.

So, exactly what's the problem with two Regions co-hosting a race?