A Poll Regarding the IT Rules Set

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ron,

We all know the 'washer bottle' is the lightning rod for this topic. The issue in my mind is where you stop. I think if you are testing the waters for a letter, you would have to do that. Your idea of 'what doesn't belong in a racecar' will vary from mine, Jeff's, Jake's, Kirk's and on and on.

Take into account ANYONE who is anti-creep will throw a flag. The anti-creep crowd looks for a reason WHY to change a rule, not just a 'why not?'. Keep that in mind. Also think about what the resultant cars 'look' like on the outside. If IT and Prod cars start to 'look' the same, it adds to outsider confusion - which is an issue for some people.

Some questions for people who are about to answer the poll:

- You satisfied with the 7 items that Ron has listed or do you want to add more?
- We have letters telling us that dashboards, windshields (replace with lexan), all lights, or 'anything that doesn't add performance to the car' should all be removed because they don't constitute a 'racecar'.

I consider myself a hybrid ITAC guy. I try to be a forward thinker for future growth but I have to ask: is there a contingent of drivers who aren't building IT cars because they can't remove their washer bottles? I ask you - what compelling arguement is there to actually DO THIS?

[JeffYoung]

And I will continue to say that "because membership wants it" should be a good enough reason why for us on the ITAC, so long as it doesn't violate an IT core value (and yes I know that can vary from person to person but I think it does so less than most suspect): no moving suspension points, stock body panels, stock motor with limited mods, DOT tires, stock transmissions, etc.

[Spinnetti]

And I will continue to say that "because membership wants it" should be a good enough reason why for us on the ITAC, so long as it doesn't violate an IT core value (and yes I know that can vary from person to person but I think it does so less than most suspect): no moving suspension points, stock body panels, stock motor with limited mods, DOT tires, stock transmissions, etc.

I second this too, IF it doesn't cost more money.. I like the idea of removing stuff though! From inception, I see IT as the means by which SCCA (which was (is?) a rich boys club) to let the "poor" people in, and has been hobbled all along. I think the core rules of very limited engine, suspension and chassis mods are really about perfect as is (except for the ECU and coilover creep), but why the concern about the rest? Why shouldn't our cars be a bit faster and better handling at no cost?

[RSI]

from my own story.

I have a car that I am having a hard time making weight legally.

Here is where we currently sit.
Take the car COMPLETELY apart to bare shell, bead blast to remove ALL sound deadening, then reinstall and still we would need to purchase aluminum shocks, and step up to all the LIGHTEST parts.

LIGHTEST means $$$$ I'm already 8k into this ITS build..which is fine, but for me to get to weight I need to spend another 4k on the lightest parts.

That's where we currently sit.
Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

Sure weight is an issue and the cost of going to plexi...but the idea of getting hit with lots of crackling glass is a little frightening.

Based on what has been discussed in the V2.0 process thread, someone stated that the point of IT was the have purpose built race cars, but from cars you would buy on the showroom floor. It was also said by an ITAC member that these cars are SUPPOSED to be trailers to each event.

So why all the dual purpose stuff?

Always seems confusing as to why I need horns on a race track and why when we are trying to keep $$$ down we get into having to spend $$$$ on lightweight parts but cannot remove more STOCK items.

Sorry if the above comes of frustrated...I just have a regular competitor in ITB that is making the jump to H-Production because he didnt read the rules and now he has to ADD all those items back into his car....so now he's out recruiting people to stop running in IT and run in Production...

I just kinda frustrated that my class of 8-9 ITB cars is now in the 3-4 whereas h-production is now 7-8.

[tom91ita]

...........Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

...................

Always seems confusing as to why I need horns on a race track and why when we are trying to keep $$$ down we get into having to spend $$$$ on lightweight parts but cannot remove more STOCK items.................

why can't you remove your window regulators? what glass are you referring to that we have to run? windshield and rear windows?

sorry, but i don't know what car you are building.

and on the subject of horns, since we have to have them, is it socially acceptable to use it during the race when overtaking?

[RSI]

Tom,
As for window regulators, the rule stating that if it doesnt say you can then you cant....I cannot remove window regulators or mechanisms or rear door glass etc.

At least that's based on the last 6-7 readings of the GCR.
Jonathan

[seckerich]

Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Washer bottle, heater core no big deal. Most are just an empty piece of copper anyway. Start going past that and removing lights and you do get to production or ST. Now my Mazda needs that one piece hood to replace the lights. Now you need a $600 lexan windshield with the mandated inside supports for another $100 and it is so scratched you can no longer see. Let alone put wipers on for rain. A small vocal few would F**k up a football given enough posts. Some of you are too stupid to realize what you have and where you would take IT. Guess that is a no vote . Sorry, I suck at politically correct tonight.

[Ron Earp]

Some of you are too stupid to realize what you have .

Ouch. At least I know where I stand now.

Windshields and glass rules weren't an option for removal in this particular poll, at least as I defined it in the beginning.

[lateapex911]

from my own story.

I have a car that I am having a hard time making weight legally.

Here is where we currently sit.
Take the car COMPLETELY apart to bare shell, bead blast to remove ALL sound deadening,

I didn't bead blast mine...a scraper did the trick. My car had over 30 pounds of the stuff, and I left 25% of it. I tend to doubt that a horn is 30 pounds. or a washer bottle. More like 1.5.

Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

You don't. In exchange for you deciding to invest a few pound and little time in your won safety, you are allowed to remove all the door crap you list. Just add a horizontal bar that protrudes in the door cavity. See "NASCAR bars" in the GCR. That's a win win.

As for wipers and HVAC, see my previous post. Some folks need them...why should they be at a disadvantage? It doesn't cost anyone anything to leave the stuff in the car.

Sure weight is an issue and the cost of going to plexi...but the idea of getting hit with lots of crackling glass is a little frightening.

No offense, but you frighten easily. It's safety glass....when was the last time you heard about a guy in a full suit and gloves, with a helmet and probably some form of glasses and/or shield getting hurt by broken safety glass? That is SO not on my list of things I worry about.

Based on what has been discussed in the V2.0 process thread, someone stated that the point of IT was the have purpose built race cars, but from cars you would buy on the showroom floor. It was also said by an ITAC member that these cars are SUPPOSED to be trailers to each event.

Who said that?? We might suggest that yea, driving a race car to the track is increasing your odds of walking home, but I drove mine to the track for many events. Walked home twice. I had coilovers, and cranked 'em up when I was going too the event. And I had taller rear springs that I swapped in and out. PIA? Sure! But, I did it, and I'm proud to say that I was one of the fastest, if not the fastest of my class/type. We CAN do lots of things, but we CHOOSE to do things that meet our needs and wants.

Sorry if the above comes of frustrated...I just have a regular competitor in ITB that is making the jump to H-Production because he didnt read the rules [when he built his car to IT specs] and now he has to ADD all those items back into his car....so now he's out recruiting people to stop running in IT and run in Production...

So, he builds a car and doesn't read the rules...then poaches your buddies to leave the class and join him....THAT'S a reason we're supposed to change the rule book!? Priceless....

[GTIspirit]

I didn't bead blast mine...a scraper did the trick. My car had over 30 pounds of the stuff, and I left 25% of it. I tend to doubt that a horn is 30 pounds. or a washer bottle. More like 1.5.

You don't. In exchange for you deciding to invest a few pound and little time in your won safety, you are allowed to remove all the door crap you list. Just add a horizontal bar that protrudes in the door cavity. See "NASCAR bars" in the GCR. That's a win win.

As for wipers and HVAC, see my previous post. Some folks need them...why should they be at a disadvantage? It doesn't cost anyone anything to leave the stuff in the car.

No offense, but you frighten easily. It's safety glass....when was the last time you heard about a guy in a full suit and gloves, with a helmet and probably some form of glasses and/or shield getting hurt by broken safety glass? That is SO not on my list of things I worry about.

Who said that?? We might suggest that yea, driving a race car to the track is increasing your odds of walking home, but I drove mine to the track for many events. Walked home twice. I had coilovers, and cranked 'em up when I was going too the event. And I had taller rear springs that I swapped in and out. PIA? Sure! But, I did it, and I'm proud to say that I was one of the fastest, if not the fastest of my class/type. We CAN do lots of things, but we CHOOSE to do things that meet our needs and wants.

So, he builds a car and doesn't read the rules...then poaches your buddies to leave the class and join him....THAT'S a reason we're supposed to change the rule book!? Priceless....

Can I change my vote? I originally voted yes, but had doubts afterwards, doubts for similar reasons that Jake cited. IT is affordable Club Racing for streetable cars with minimal mods, that's the spirit, right? So on second thought I'm for maintaining the dual vestiges.

So, being "anti creep" in that area was really being rather backwards. For those that feel ECU cars have been getting a break, remember, the Process assumes a full tilt ECu will be used. The good news there is that yu can get great performance from ECUs that are very reasonable.

Maybe I'm flogging a dead horse, but as discussed elsewhere, there are some cars caught in the middle that can't take advantage of the open ECU rule because of the limitations imposed by the sensor rules. While yes, it is possible to get a useable ignition signal from the camshaft sensor, that signal is crap compared with that from a 36 tooth or 60 tooth crank trigger wheel. And that crappy signal will be a big handicap to finding any gains with a full tilt ECU. I'm mildly optimistic that this inequality will be resolved by the ITAC.

[Z3_GoCar]

.....You don't. In exchange for you deciding to invest a few pound and little time in your won safety, you are allowed to remove all the door crap you list. Just add a horizontal bar that protrudes in the door cavity. See "NASCAR bars" in the GCR. That's a win win.

As for wipers and HVAC, see my previous post. Some folks need them...why should they be at a disadvantage? It doesn't cost anyone anything to leave the stuff in the car.

No offense, but you frighten easily. It's safety glass....when was the last time you heard about a guy in a full suit and gloves, with a helmet and probably some form of glasses and/or shield getting hurt by broken safety glass? That is SO not on my list of things I worry about.

.....

Uh Jake,

If I remember correctly he's got a Volvo wagon, and is talking about the window glass from the second set of doors and wagon windows, I don't think door bars will help with those and last time I checked the side glass isn't safety, it's tempered as in shatters into tiny bits.

I've still not voted... how about adding the glove box to the list of stuff that can be removed from the interior? Oh, and technically I'm still required to have a seat heater as those aren't mentioned either. As for window fog it's called Fog-X same as Rain-X for the inside. Otherwise I've found the AC is much better at de-fogging the windshield than the heater.

[lateapex911]

Uh Jake,

If I remember correctly he's got a Volvo wagon, and is talking about the window glass from the second set of doors and wagon windows, I don't think door bars will help with those and last time I checked the side glass isn't safety, it's tempered as in shatters into tiny bits.

I've still not voted... how about adding the glove box to the list of stuff that can be removed from the interior? Oh, and technically I'm still required to have a seat heater as those aren't mentioned either. As for window fog it's called Fog-X same as Rain-X for the inside. Otherwise I've found the AC is much better at de-fogging the windshield than the heater.

OK, I guess I missed the part about it being the back doors. But the point remains, the stuff is hardly any more hazardous than gravel.

Also, think about it this way: Guys want to remove it for various reasons. The ITAC allows it. They just made a rule change that, what, hundreds or a thousand cars now will need to comply with.

You say, "Make it optional". Irrelevant. Most guys are far more concerned with becoming MORE competitive than with meeting rules just for the sake of meeting rules. They will change out that glass because it's 10 pounds way up high in the car that could be placed elsewhere, or left on the garage floor altogether. Of course, they'll need to source a replacement, or fabricate one.

Simply put, such a change alters the package that most will bring to the track, adds to the workload, and isn't needed. I just don't see a compelling reason to DO it.

[JeffYoung]

One other point, sorry for the double post.

I would answer this question YES. Not just because of the specific "you must keep the washer bottle" rule, but by the concept in play here that you have to keep "silly things" on an race car under the IT ruleset. Yes, I think that does drive some folks away from IT, in concept.

. I try to be a forward thinker for future growth but I have to ask: is there a contingent of drivers who aren't building IT cars because they can't remove their washer bottles?

[ddewhurst]

***washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.***

***dashboards, windshields (replace with lexan), all lights, or 'anything that doesn't add performance to the car' should all be removed because they don't constitute a 'racecar'.***

Bill Miller, your list please.

& the list continues untill we have a _______________ (fill in the blank) class that already exists.

Dude, if it isn't broke why are you trying to fix it.

[JeffYoung]

I think "No ITAC" (for a while...lol) in this thread is a good idea. Let's see what this slice of membership says and go from there.

[Knestis]

I think "No ITAC" (for a while...lol) in this thread is a good idea. Let's see what this slice of membership says and go from there.

Fine with me. I'm about a day from officially not giving a damn anymore. Again. This, because I am all but positive that the category is on the brink of having WAY bigger issues than washer bottles.

Have at it, y'all.

K

[Bill Miller]

***washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.***

***dashboards, windshields (replace with lexan), all lights, or 'anything that doesn't add performance to the car' should all be removed because they don't constitute a 'racecar'.***

Bill Miller, your list please.

& the list continues untill we have a _______________ (fill in the blank) class that already exists.

Dude, if it isn't broke why are you trying to fix it.

Sorry David, I'm pleading the 5th on this one.