A Poll Regarding the IT Rules Set

[Ron Earp]

I'm curious to see how many of the IT Forum members would like to change the IT rules set to drop some of the rather pointless rules requiring washer bottles, heater cores, and other "street car" items that seem to be vestiges from the dual purpose beginnings of IT.

When you vote on the poll I'd like for you to assume that it will be possible to simply remove these requirements from the rules set with no negative "unintended consequences". I am aware that there are those that feel we can't possibly remove these items from the IT rules set without destroying IT but to those folks I say "bullshit". It is my poll so vote with my boundary condition in mind .

For the purposes of the poll assume we're talking about the following "dual purpose vestiges": washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ron,

We all know the 'washer bottle' is the lightning rod for this topic. The issue in my mind is where you stop. I think if you are testing the waters for a letter, you would have to do that. Your idea of 'what doesn't belong in a racecar' will vary from mine, Jeff's, Jake's, Kirk's and on and on.

Take into account ANYONE who is anti-creep will throw a flag. The anti-creep crowd looks for a reason WHY to change a rule, not just a 'why not?'. Keep that in mind. Also think about what the resultant cars 'look' like on the outside. If IT and Prod cars start to 'look' the same, it adds to outsider confusion - which is an issue for some people.

Some questions for people who are about to answer the poll:

- You satisfied with the 7 items that Ron has listed or do you want to add more?
- We have letters telling us that dashboards, windshields (replace with lexan), all lights, or 'anything that doesn't add performance to the car' should all be removed because they don't constitute a 'racecar'.

I consider myself a hybrid ITAC guy. I try to be a forward thinker for future growth but I have to ask: is there a contingent of drivers who aren't building IT cars because they can't remove their washer bottles? I ask you - what compelling arguement is there to actually DO THIS?

[JeffYoung]

And I will continue to say that "because membership wants it" should be a good enough reason why for us on the ITAC, so long as it doesn't violate an IT core value (and yes I know that can vary from person to person but I think it does so less than most suspect): no moving suspension points, stock body panels, stock motor with limited mods, DOT tires, stock transmissions, etc.

[Spinnetti]

And I will continue to say that "because membership wants it" should be a good enough reason why for us on the ITAC, so long as it doesn't violate an IT core value (and yes I know that can vary from person to person but I think it does so less than most suspect): no moving suspension points, stock body panels, stock motor with limited mods, DOT tires, stock transmissions, etc.

I second this too, IF it doesn't cost more money.. I like the idea of removing stuff though! From inception, I see IT as the means by which SCCA (which was (is?) a rich boys club) to let the "poor" people in, and has been hobbled all along. I think the core rules of very limited engine, suspension and chassis mods are really about perfect as is (except for the ECU and coilover creep), but why the concern about the rest? Why shouldn't our cars be a bit faster and better handling at no cost?

[RSI]

from my own story.

I have a car that I am having a hard time making weight legally.

Here is where we currently sit.
Take the car COMPLETELY apart to bare shell, bead blast to remove ALL sound deadening, then reinstall and still we would need to purchase aluminum shocks, and step up to all the LIGHTEST parts.

LIGHTEST means $$$$ I'm already 8k into this ITS build..which is fine, but for me to get to weight I need to spend another 4k on the lightest parts.

That's where we currently sit.
Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

Sure weight is an issue and the cost of going to plexi...but the idea of getting hit with lots of crackling glass is a little frightening.

Based on what has been discussed in the V2.0 process thread, someone stated that the point of IT was the have purpose built race cars, but from cars you would buy on the showroom floor. It was also said by an ITAC member that these cars are SUPPOSED to be trailers to each event.

So why all the dual purpose stuff?

Always seems confusing as to why I need horns on a race track and why when we are trying to keep $$$ down we get into having to spend $$$$ on lightweight parts but cannot remove more STOCK items.

Sorry if the above comes of frustrated...I just have a regular competitor in ITB that is making the jump to H-Production because he didnt read the rules and now he has to ADD all those items back into his car....so now he's out recruiting people to stop running in IT and run in Production...

I just kinda frustrated that my class of 8-9 ITB cars is now in the 3-4 whereas h-production is now 7-8.

[tom91ita]

...........Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

...................

Always seems confusing as to why I need horns on a race track and why when we are trying to keep $$$ down we get into having to spend $$$$ on lightweight parts but cannot remove more STOCK items.................

why can't you remove your window regulators? what glass are you referring to that we have to run? windshield and rear windows?

sorry, but i don't know what car you are building.

and on the subject of horns, since we have to have them, is it socially acceptable to use it during the race when overtaking?

[lateapex911]

from my own story.

I have a car that I am having a hard time making weight legally.

Here is where we currently sit.
Take the car COMPLETELY apart to bare shell, bead blast to remove ALL sound deadening,

I didn't bead blast mine...a scraper did the trick. My car had over 30 pounds of the stuff, and I left 25% of it. I tend to doubt that a horn is 30 pounds. or a washer bottle. More like 1.5.

Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

You don't. In exchange for you deciding to invest a few pound and little time in your won safety, you are allowed to remove all the door crap you list. Just add a horizontal bar that protrudes in the door cavity. See "NASCAR bars" in the GCR. That's a win win.

As for wipers and HVAC, see my previous post. Some folks need them...why should they be at a disadvantage? It doesn't cost anyone anything to leave the stuff in the car.

Sure weight is an issue and the cost of going to plexi...but the idea of getting hit with lots of crackling glass is a little frightening.

No offense, but you frighten easily. It's safety glass....when was the last time you heard about a guy in a full suit and gloves, with a helmet and probably some form of glasses and/or shield getting hurt by broken safety glass? That is SO not on my list of things I worry about.

Based on what has been discussed in the V2.0 process thread, someone stated that the point of IT was the have purpose built race cars, but from cars you would buy on the showroom floor. It was also said by an ITAC member that these cars are SUPPOSED to be trailers to each event.

Who said that?? We might suggest that yea, driving a race car to the track is increasing your odds of walking home, but I drove mine to the track for many events. Walked home twice. I had coilovers, and cranked 'em up when I was going too the event. And I had taller rear springs that I swapped in and out. PIA? Sure! But, I did it, and I'm proud to say that I was one of the fastest, if not the fastest of my class/type. We CAN do lots of things, but we CHOOSE to do things that meet our needs and wants.

Sorry if the above comes of frustrated...I just have a regular competitor in ITB that is making the jump to H-Production because he didnt read the rules [when he built his car to IT specs] and now he has to ADD all those items back into his car....so now he's out recruiting people to stop running in IT and run in Production...

So, he builds a car and doesn't read the rules...then poaches your buddies to leave the class and join him....THAT'S a reason we're supposed to change the rule book!? Priceless....

[JeffYoung]

One other point, sorry for the double post.

I would answer this question YES. Not just because of the specific "you must keep the washer bottle" rule, but by the concept in play here that you have to keep "silly things" on an race car under the IT ruleset. Yes, I think that does drive some folks away from IT, in concept.

. I try to be a forward thinker for future growth but I have to ask: is there a contingent of drivers who aren't building IT cars because they can't remove their washer bottles?

[ddewhurst]

***washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.***

***dashboards, windshields (replace with lexan), all lights, or 'anything that doesn't add performance to the car' should all be removed because they don't constitute a 'racecar'.***

Bill Miller, your list please.

& the list continues untill we have a _______________ (fill in the blank) class that already exists.

Dude, if it isn't broke why are you trying to fix it.

[JeffYoung]

I think "No ITAC" (for a while...lol) in this thread is a good idea. Let's see what this slice of membership says and go from there.

[Knestis]

I think "No ITAC" (for a while...lol) in this thread is a good idea. Let's see what this slice of membership says and go from there.

Fine with me. I'm about a day from officially not giving a damn anymore. Again. This, because I am all but positive that the category is on the brink of having WAY bigger issues than washer bottles.

Have at it, y'all.

K

[Bill Miller]

***washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.***

***dashboards, windshields (replace with lexan), all lights, or 'anything that doesn't add performance to the car' should all be removed because they don't constitute a 'racecar'.***

Bill Miller, your list please.

& the list continues untill we have a _______________ (fill in the blank) class that already exists.

Dude, if it isn't broke why are you trying to fix it.

Sorry David, I'm pleading the 5th on this one.

[Ron Earp]

Andy,

Just take the poll for face value. I'm just interested to know if others wish to remove these items from their cars. Right now I'm not interested in "anti-creep", whys, ifs, and so on. I might be interested in those things in my next post....or letter. I do think Jeff is barking up the right tree though.

Actually it might be interesting if the ITAC doesn't participate in the poll.

Ron

[Spinnetti]

I'm curious to see how many of the IT Forum members would like to change the IT rules set to drop some of the rather pointless rules requiring washer bottles, heater cores, and other "street car" items that seem to be vestiges from the dual purpose beginnings of IT.

When you vote on the poll I'd like for you to assume that it will be possible to simply remove these requirements from the rules set with no negative "unintended consequences". I am aware that there are those that feel we can't possibly remove these items from the IT rules set without destroying IT but to those folks I say "bullshit". It is my poll so vote with my boundary condition in mind .

For the purposes of the poll assume we're talking about the following "dual purpose vestiges": washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.

I couldn't agree more strongly! WHY should IT be penalized to run this crap. These are RACE cars! The days of driving your sports car to work, then the track were OVER years ago for anybody serious, not like it makes sense to driver car on the street with a full cage in it anyway. The key point I think some are missing is that removing stock junk you don't need DOESN'T COST ANYTHING. Everybody can do it!. Its not like the creep that I think was foolish which costs ALOT such as coilovers and ECU's for instance. For the anti-rules creep folks, why did you let those go? Although its just my preference, I like IT cars to look like street cars, at least from the outside. I wouldn't want to change any of that, but I say be allowed to remove those things mentioned, plus the dash. The rest of the car is empty now anyway thanks to previous rules creep - finish the job!

[shwah]

I voted no within Ron's boundary conditions.

I have no problem whatsoever removing horns and washer bottles, and no problem replacing wires.

That is about as far as I would be comfortable.

[trhoppe]

For the purposes of the poll assume we're talking about the following "dual purpose vestiges": washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.

Allow for removal of all of those except headlights. Lets keep the outsides of the cars looking the same, and removal of all of those items except headlights allows for just "removal" rather then replacement.

Me personally, only thing I would remove is the washer bottle reservoir. I'll keep my windshield vents/HVAC/heater core in case it rains, so my window doesn't fog up.

-Tom