A Poll Regarding the IT Rules Set

[matt batson]

sorry, but I dont see the big deal. If the front runners want to remove the stuff they can. If they want to keep their windshield washer bottles or motors, they can.
And I dont see how this will cost anybody any money or frustration.


Now, you wanna talk arms race, then we can talk about the ECU and final drive allowances that never should have made it into the rulebook. Talk about costing the front runners money...

[lateapex911]

sorry, but I dont see the big deal. If the front runners want to remove the stuff they can. If they want to keep their windshield washer bottles or motors, they can.
And I dont see how this will cost anybody any money or frustration.


Now, you wanna talk arms race, then we can talk about the ECU and final drive allowances that never should have made it into the rulebook. Talk about costing the front runners money...

Well, we could just not allow ECU cars in.....

[seckerich]

sorry, but I dont see the big deal. If the front runners want to remove the stuff they can. If they want to keep their windshield washer bottles or motors, they can.
And I dont see how this will cost anybody any money or frustration.


Now, you wanna talk arms race, then we can talk about the ECU and final drive allowances that never should have made it into the rulebook. Talk about costing the front runners money...

You have only been around IT for a short period Matt. All those rules were in place when you started. You read the rules and made a decision to play. There is a balancing act between letting drivers change enough to be excited about a class and allowing so much it gets out of hand. Washer bottle is no big deal unless it covers a big hole in front of the air intake. Then it is not such a small deal. Every seemingly simple rule change has unintended consequences. Now you have to go fix what WAS NOT BROKEN.

[frnkhous]

No, in the case of the hvac and wiper parts I would not remove them unless i'd exhausted every other means of getting the car within 50lbs of weight. The problem I see is it will become accpetable to class cars a weights based on achieving a weight with these items removed. A fully prepped car is still fully prepped. You guys simply want to add farther to what that includes when it comes to removing things. I get the washer bottle(not sure why it is so hotly desired for removal even the argument that it is hard to get for a few seems weak when you figure how few people it really affects in a year) but I undertand removing it. The other items i'll argue you simply haven't been around road racing long enough if you don't see the serious downsides to the removal. No you won't have to remove them but how long before people cry because they scca doesn't black flag all so that people can come in and get wipers etc. No thankyou, these are production based vehicles and if it doesn't make it safer to remove it leave it alone.

The Ecu rule is a silly argument, If you don't like it then I think you should be ok with the idea of a completely stock carb with needles as delivered on your datsun, as well as completely stock ignition controls. NO changing weights, pickups points etc. Otherwise your already getting many of the benefits of the ecu rule.

[jjjanos]

The ECU rule is a red-herring. My understanding is that the rule was changed in two phases.

Second, and most liberal change, free ECUs. The motivation for this was equity and to lessen the cost of the arms race. There was a set of cars that could cram an after-market ECU into the stock housing a/o custom chip installed in the stock housing. The cost was prohibitive for most, but for the big buck guy, within budget. Given the relaxation of the original standard, it made sense.

First, and least liberal change, was the stock housing rule. As I recall, this was not done to allow allowances a/o performance improvement. It was done because the stock ECU rule was becoming/had become unenforceable. Consequently, dropping the stock ECU rule made sense.

Now alternate final drives... there you have something.

[Conover]

The ECU rule is a red-herring. My understanding is that the rule was changed in two phases.

Second, and most liberal change, free ECUs. The motivation for this was equity and to lessen the cost of the arms race. There was a set of cars that could cram an after-market ECU into the stock housing a/o custom chip installed in the stock housing. The cost was prohibitive for most, but for the big buck guy, within budget. Given the relaxation of the original standard, it made sense.

The Problem With the ECU rule is that it wasn't truly opened up. The current Sensor rule heavily favors some cars and punishes others. Something along the lines of :

"ECU input devices may be replaced or substituted, stock air metering device must remain in place, but does not have to be utilized."

That would be the way to go, otherwise you have cars that you can put a nice new programmable ecu in the car and then have to spend literally thousands of dollars to design a one off trigger to run the thing from.

Intentions were good, I just think the rule needs to be more thoroughly considered if cost issues, and "fairness" for lack of a better word, are actual goals.

[JeffYoung]

I've tried, but I just can't contain myself anymore.

What Cameron said! lol......

[Ron Earp]

Said it on the other thread, say it here. As the others have pointed out the rule is unfair now. If your car comes from the factory with a crank fired system plus other modern engine management sensors/ECU you're good to go. Add any ECU you want and you'll have the sensors to make it sing.

If your car doesn't come from the factory with all the "goodies" you can't add them and you'll be not enjoying the benefits your competitors might have.

Ron

[spawpoet]

I've tried, but I just can't contain myself anymore.

What Cameron said! lol......

I would agree with that as well. I only pointed out the ECU as an example of creep and something more threatening than a wash bottle, but it's done and we can't go back. If we are going to creep we gotta creep fairly. It's probably best (meaning most fair) that all the sensors be open.

[jjjanos]

The Problem With the ECU rule is that it wasn't truly opened up. The current Sensor rule heavily favors some cars and punishes others.

Not true. The sacred process which produces exact and correct weights without the need of human intervention must already be making adjustments for those with the correct sensors versus those that lack them versus those that drive antiques with carbs.

[spawpoet]

Not true. The sacred process which produces exact and correct weights without the need of human intervention must already be making adjustments for those with the correct sensors versus those that lack them versus those that drive antiques with carbs.

While I've been around a few years, I'm new enough that I'm not sure about this. Does the process already adjust for these variables? Did it adjust for carb vs. FI BEFORE opening up ECU's. Are the same adjustment still in play after the changes that have been made?

[spawpoet]

No, in the case of the hvac and wiper parts I would not remove them unless i'd exhausted every other means of getting the car within 50lbs of weight. The problem I see is it will become accpetable to class cars a weights based on achieving a weight with these items removed. A fully prepped car is still fully prepped. You guys simply want to add farther to what that includes when it comes to removing things. I get the washer bottle(not sure why it is so hotly desired for removal even the argument that it is hard to get for a few seems weak when you figure how few people it really affects in a year) but I undertand removing it. The other items i'll argue you simply haven't been around road racing long enough if you don't see the serious downsides to the removal. No you won't have to remove them but how long before people cry because they scca doesn't black flag all so that people can come in and get wipers etc. No thankyou, these are production based vehicles and if it doesn't make it safer to remove it leave it alone.

The Ecu rule is a silly argument, If you don't like it then I think you should be ok with the idea of a completely stock carb with needles as delivered on your datsun, as well as completely stock ignition controls. NO changing weights, pickups points etc. Otherwise your already getting many of the benefits of the ecu rule.

The argument I was making had nothing to do with parity between carb'd cars and FI cars. Simply that if we think we can safely open up ECU rules (you HAVE to admit that is very complex), then a washer bottle should be simple to approach. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the parity argument, why weren't the carb'd cars running away with all the IT wins when other FI cars were "stuck" with a stock ECU? Honest question. Was there parity, before the ECU rules were opened up, between FI cars and carb'd cars? Maybe the answer is no, but there is an inherent advantage in having an ECU over carbs. Just because changing needles etc can overcome some of the disadvantage of having carbs, doesn't mean carb'd cars were at a major advantage before the ECU rules were changed. And from what I understand that was NOT the reasons the ECU rules were changed. I believe they were changed because it was considered difficult to police.